What would Prime Tyson vs Prime Tua be like?

[slicksouthpaw16]

This is tough, i think Tua in his prime was underrated and its a shame that we really didn't get to see how good Ibeabuchi would of became (i think he could have easily been great) and that would of made Tua look even better. Tyson was clearly more skilled and faster, but i think Tua had more of that one punch KO power and was tougher mentally. This is probably one of the few fights where i just can't make a prediction. I can see a scenario where Tyson is ahead and starts to break down late but weather's Tua's late round storm, or i can see Tua pushing Tyson back (where Tyson was least effective) taking his heart and eventually stopping him.

[Toney616]

Tyson's best 'prime' match was Berbick, or maybe one could argue Ruddock.

The reason people love him is because they're awed by his prime/middle years fighting spirit and killer instinct, the crazy speed and power is just an amplified way of showing the public the killer instinct(compared to average speed/power style fighter)

I would argue that his skill set was highest during Berbick and his intangibles (heart/will to win) was moderate, by Ruddock his skill set had decreased but his intangibles had increased.

[Toney616]

For what Arum is going to use him for, absolutely. He'll eventually go up against Soto on one of these Mexican events, or maybe on HBO? I don't even know if he still has an HBO contract, if not that then another Latin card.


He looked like he still has some nice pop, mixes in his shots well especially that left liver punch. He was throwing it like he did vs McKinney. His jab is on point, pretty stiff and looks like it's improving. He's using it more for sure.

Thanks for answering

[frankenfrank]

You're making the assumption that the evidence was there beyond my posts that are listed, something which you cant do. You have to actually bring the evidence, not assume it.

Part of that evidence is your previous avatar which you chose to replace with your current one for reasons knows only to you and me.

[frankenfrank]

Alright, I change my stance they are ALL journeyman/not very good fighters etc etc

I don't consider Rahman , Sanders and Moorer top 30 HWs , but they were good HW contenders of their era , and wins against them do count , unlike those 2 guys (Green and someone) you deduced Tyson's defense was good as Byrd's upon his performance against them.

That Toney was 20 lbs heavier than the Toney who fought Holyfield. Either way history shows that Toney should of stayed at CW

I agree he never belonged at HW , but : he probably earned good money for some of his HW fights , and he had a respectable resume there :
A stoppage over Holyfield whom fought years later and remained unstopped since then , a draw against Rahman , a decision over Guinn , 2 respectable distance fights (and more so for a former MW) against a prime Sam Peter.

He beat Peter the first time but was throughly dominated in the second fight

It was over with the Holyfield I fight, the fact that he didnt even seem to be that motivated when fighting for the hw championship over the world. Teddy also knew that, he then cherrypicked a 45 year old and look what happened. He would also lose badly to Holyfield as well

As I said , Moorer is not in my all time top 30 , but he was good for his era , and wins against him count.

Ruiz was stunned by a mw(jones) and koed by a cw(Haye)

Ruiz was himself a former CW , Haye was a massive CW , bigger than most of
the former HW champions.

Moorer has been koed a number of times and is a naural lhw

Against whom was he KO'd ? how many fighters throughout history wouldn't have been stopped by them ?

The rest of the guys you mentioned are just not very good

They were respectable opponents in their era , which was strong .

I dont rate him because he is boring, ducked Byrd, refused to give Mercer a rematch and wanted nothing to do with Vitali. The dude took Tyson to court forcing him to challenge him for his belt even when Tyson said he wasnt ready for him. He also had a chance to fight Ike as well but looked the other way. I like the way you ignored by other two points as well

What you consider ignores are already answered claims.
Lewis is still an all time top 10 HW , do you deny it ?

Maybe maybe not, he was also starting to lose focus as well

None worth mentioning

So you admit Tua was more dangerous later in a fight than Tyson ?

He was basically training himself after Rooney, he never really listened to Giachetti as shown during the Ruddock fights. Jay bright was a abysmal trainer and didn't know anything about boxing
Also is that the same Roach that didn't even know where Tyson was during training camp, because he was off partying all the time?

Only 3 of those fights were during his prime, try to focus on those

Tua is nothing like those

Dude you think you are being clever, but you are the one who doesnt know what he is talking about. How can a fighter still be prime when their skill set has serious decreased? Also are you saying because he had a lot of important fights later on in his career that means he still must of been prime?

He was in a very good shape at least until 1996.
The man had experience , he knew how to fight and he was still young.

Yeah lets talk about Tyson's 18th pro fight when he was still a green contender. That has a lot to do with this thread, right?

So you consider Tyson's prime a 4 fights period , very convincing.
And all of his impressive wins that came after it are a result of ?
He outdid Rid**** Bowe and Lennox Lewis against Golotta , but was shot then ?

Out of interest tell me when Tyson was in his prime, then give your definition of prime

Tyson's prime was something like 1986/7 - 1996

Now you are just trolling with this:
Tyson's skill set decreased after Rooney
He went to prison for 3.5 years
Went into prison again for about another 6-12 months.
Took recreational drugs and anti depressant medication between fights

But all of that doesnt matter because he was still 1 year younger than Lewis that never went through the same stuff

As I said , prime for prime , I consider Tyson a slight favorite against Lewis.

So because a fighter has a belt, that makes him a top fighter? Bruce Seldon was a great fighter wasnt he?

Not at all , but they also had good wins in their resume that do prove something.
Seldon will not even be top 50 in my list if I will think enough.

It doesnt matter the facts show that when Tua fought elite fighters he couldnt ko them

Maybe , but then , which elite fighters (in an elite shape) did Tyson KO ?

It is impossible for you to focus on the period 86-88 isnt it?

Tyson could have given Tua big problems , but same is the opposite way.

No I havent, what did you expect Byrd to do go all Hagler-Hearns on Tua? He stood in front of him and boxed

and escaped out of harm's way whenever needed , he couldn't bring much harm himself , could he ?

Also in case you didnt notice it but the thread starter was talking about Tyson from the 80's (when he was considered prime), the time period you refuse to talk about

As I said in this post , no long ago (which means you repeat your question yet again) Tyson will pose a tough test for Tua and same is the opposite way.

[Vadrigar.]

Part of that evidence is your previous avatar which you chose to replace with your current one for reasons knows only to you and me.

I replaced it due to religious bigatory, racism, insults towards my mother, islamaphobic messages.. etc. This was not coming from you, but from other posters.

If people start mocking my current avatar, then I will have to remove it as well. That's basically my reasoning for doing it.

[Bright-Eyes]

The only way Tyson was ever going to be stopped was through an accumulation of punishment.


Tua could stun him but he's not going to knock him out like that.



How does Tua react to Tyson's body punching?

[Toney616]

I don't consider Rahman , Sanders and Moorer top 30 HWs , but they were good HW contenders of their era , and wins against them do count , unlike those 2 guys (Green and someone) you deduced Tyson's defense was good as Byrd's upon his performance against them.

Dude this is starting to get irritating, you havent watched any of Tyson fight were his defense capabilities were on display, so I pointed out those two fights. I Never said Green and Gross were top fighters. How about this why dont you watch: Tucker, Thomas, Biggs and Holmes for fights which highlight his defensive capabilities?

As I said , Moorer is not in my all time top 30 , but he was good for his era , and wins against him count.

Moorer was nothing special at hw, as I pointed out in Holyfield I, Holyfield II and Foreman fights.

Ruiz was himself a former CW , Haye was a massive CW , bigger than most of
the former HW champions.

Doesn't matter, Ruiz had been a HW since around 94, so that's around 16 years as a hw. He was still stunned by a mw(Jones) as well.

Against whom was he KO'd ? how many fighters throughout history wouldn't have been stopped by them ?

Moorer was dropped around 5 times during his rematch with Holyfield, who isnt a big hitter. He was also wiped out by a 45 year old Foreman. I could think of a lot of fighters who wouldnt of got koed by those two fighters

They were respectable opponents in their era , which was strong .

No it wasnt, the hw era was strong in the 70's and early 90's

What you consider ignores are already answered claims.

I said he ducked Byrd and messed Vitali around, you didnt address those points.

Lewis is still an all time top 10 HW , do you deny it ?

Whether he is or not is irrelevant, I still dont rate him. I already stated my reasons why

So you admit Tua was more dangerous later in a fight than Tyson ?

How did you come to that conclusion? I said no one worth mentioning just like I dont consider any of the opponents Tus koed late worth mentioning

Tua is nothing like those

You have only watched 3 fights from Tyson prime. Which include the Smith fight which was a 12 round clinch fest, his 90 second demolition over Spinks (former lhw) and his 2 round demolision over a scared Berbick. How are you going to evaluate Tysons skill set and intangbiles on those three fights? I also never said Tua was like any of those guys.

He was in a very good shape at least until 1996.
The man had experience , he knew how to fight and he was still young.

How on earth does being in good shape have anything to do with whether a fighter is in there prime or not?

Ali post exile had basically "lost" his legs, he was no longer the same fighter, but because he was in good shape you consider him still prime?

Jones was still in good shape after getting koed by Tarver II, but because he was still in good shape you still consider him prime?

Frazier was still in good shape after Ali I, but you still consider him prime?

How can a fighter stop training as hard as they used to, their reflexes slow, they abandon all the things that got them to the top like:
Jabbing
Bobbing and weaving
Slipping punches
Combination punching

They go to prison for 3.5 years and they are not allowed to train, but because he was in good shape according to you he was still prime?

So you consider Tyson's prime a 4 fights period , very convincing.
And all of his impressive wins that came after it are a result of ?
He outdid Rid**** Bowe and Lennox Lewis against Golotta , but was shot then ?

I never said he was shot-more like past prime

Tysons prime is basically considered to be from Berbick-Spinks, he was clearly on the slide after then, he did pick himself up after Douglas and was good until Ruddock II. He was never the same after Prison

Tyson's prime was something like 1986/7 - 1996

You havent watched many of his fights, especially from the 80's, you dont know anything about what was going on in his training camps, but he is still prime according to you, because he was in shape?

Ali was considered post prime after his exile which was 3.5 years, Tyson goes to prison for the same amount of time but he is still prime?

As I said , prime for prime , I consider Tyson a slight favorite against Lewis.

Whats this got to do with anything?

Not at all , but they also had good wins in their resume that do prove something.

They were B level fighters who beat other B level fighters

Seldon will not even be top 50 in my list if I will think enough.

Why are you constantly mentioning your ATG list? I doubt if you are older enough to have a proper list. To have a ATG list requires you to watch literaly thousands of fights

Maybe, but then, which elite fighters (in an elite shape) did Tyson KO ?

How does this help your case? If he cant ko the elite fighters he faced then he isnt going to ko any prime version of Tyson.

and escaped out of harm's way whenever needed , he couldn't bring much harm himself , could he ?

Go and watch that fight again, when you have then get back to me

As I said in this post , no long ago (which means you repeat your question yet again) Tyson will pose a tough test for Tua and same is the opposite way.

In order to take part in this debate you will have had to watch some Tyson fights from the 80's like: Holmes, Tucker, Thomas and Tubbs. The fact that you haven't basically disqualifies you from this debate. Which is why you have obviously been using boxrec stats and repeating Teddy Atlas nonsense like Tyson only beat guys who were afraid of him

[frankenfrank]

Dude this is starting to get irritating, you havent watched any of Tyson fight were his defense capabilities were on display, so I pointed out those two fights. I Never said Green and Gross were top fighters. How about this why dont you watch: Tucker, Thomas, Biggs and Holmes for fights which highlight his defensive capabilities?

How do you know which fights I watched andwhich I didn't ?
No go quote me and find I watched the Holmes fight.
And what does it prove ? nothing. Tyson's defensive skills checked by a 39 years old fighter whom was never one of the quickest nor one of the
hardest punching even during his prime ?
You could prove nothing.

Moorer was nothing special at hw, as I pointed out in Holyfield I, Holyfield II and Foreman fights.

You proved nothing again .
But you never heard of his other fights do you ?
You just keep comparing him to top 10 all time HWs which I never thought nor claimed he was close to be.

Doesn't matter, Ruiz had been a HW since around 94, so that's around 16 years as a hw. He was still stunned by a mw(Jones) as well.

Jones was far from a MW when he faced Ruiz , he was a bulked formerly fully fledged LHW : more massive than Bob Foster and Harold Johnson whom had careers at HW.
Haye was actually bigger than Ruiz , whom in turn was just fatter ,
you failed again.
Another thing is Ruiz was really removed from his prime when he faced Haye.

Moorer was dropped around 5 times during his rematch with Holyfield, who isnt a big hitter. He was also wiped out by a 45 year old Foreman. I could think of a lot of fighters who wouldnt of got koed by those two fighters

Keep comparing Moorer to all time top 10 HWs.

No it wasnt, the hw era was strong in the 70's and early 90's

and in the latter 90's as well.

I said he ducked Byrd and messed Vitali around, you didnt address those points.

Byrd might have outpointed the older and slower Lewis , Lewis avoided a rematch with Vitali , did not win convincingly in the first fight , but would have been a top 10 all time heavy even if he lost a close decision to the younger Byrd , losing a close controversial decision (the maximum Byrd could achieve against Lewis) does not detract too much from a fighter.
Had he lost convincingly to Vitali in the rematch it could still be claimed Lewis was removed from his prime.

Whether he is or not is irrelevant, I still dont rate him. I already stated my reasons why

Which is one of the reasons to why you never post your top 10 list ?
cause you know it will be too ludicrous or will you copy paste some ole fart's list , and change the ordering ?

How did you come to that conclusion? I said no one worth mentioning just like I dont consider any of the opponents Tus koed late worth mentioning

According to you no fighter throughout the history known to you is worth mentioning for this reason or another. yet an aged 39 Holmes , Mitch Green and another someone are extremely worth mentioning .

You have only watched 3 fights from Tyson prime. Which include the Smith fight which was a 12 round clinch fest,

Yet still Holmes managed to stop that Smith twice and Tyson couldn't.

his 90 second demolition over Spinks (former lhw) and his 2 round demolision over a scared Berbick.

Berbick was not scared , I wonder when was the last time you watched it.

How are you going to evaluate Tysons skill set and intangbiles on those three fights? I also never said Tua was like any of those guys.

You estimate Tyson's expected performance against Tua from his performance against much worse opponents than these.
You fail even harder than you thought I claimed you did and in understanding what I wrote.

How on earth does being in good shape have anything to do with whether a fighter is in there prime or not?

It is an important part of it.

Ali post exile had basically "lost" his legs, he was no longer the same fighter, but because he was in good shape you consider him still prime?

Very close to prime , so yes.
"Lost his legs" , nice words from someone whom probably didn't see more than 2 post exile fights of Ali.

Jones was still in good shape after getting koed by Tarver II, but because he was still in good shape you still consider him prime?

No , but he was still weakened by the muscle loss , not too much of a good shape , so your argument isn't too valid here either.

Frazier was still in good shape after Ali I, but you still consider him prime?

Yes , maybe not 100% but close to it.

How can a fighter stop training as hard as they used to, their reflexes slow, they abandon all the things that got them to the top like:
Jabbing
Bobbing and weaving
Slipping punches
Combination punching

They go to prison for 3.5 years and they are not allowed to train, but because he was in good shape according to you he was still prime?

You know fighters today someone take a year and above hiatuses just for recuperation , healing , career problems , waiting for other fighters etc.
Watch Jirov's performance against Toney after a 18 months layoff.

I never said he was shot-more like past prime

Tysons prime is basically considered to be from Berbick-Spinks, he was clearly on the slide after then, he did pick himself up after Douglas and was good until Ruddock II. He was never the same after Prison

You havent watched many of his fights, especially from the 80's,

I don't remember every name but I think watched more than 5 of his fights from the 80's alone. I wonder how many of them did you watch and how many other fighter's fights which you overwhelmingly discredit you watched .

you dont know anything about what was going on in his training camps, but he is still prime according to you, because he was in shape?

True I never was in his training camps , but so weren't you ,
and him being in shape does reveal something about what he did there , doesn't it ?

Ali was considered post prime after his exile which was 3.5 years, Tyson goes to prison for the same amount of time but he is still prime?

Maybe not 100% , but as I said after you asked the same thing 2 times already , fighters many times take a more than a year hiatus and sometimes it is still not enough , there are also advantages about resting and recuperating.

Whats this got to do with anything?

They were B level fighters who beat other B level fighters

If one systematically beats B level fighters , then he is not such , let alone someone whom does it convincingly easily and then repeats the same against the top contenders of his time better than everyone else.

Why are you constantly mentioning your ATG list? I doubt if you are older enough to have a proper list.

So now you know my age too ? I probably finished high school before you learned to divide numbers , but what does it prove ?
There are people much older than me here whom will tell you Brian London , Jerry Quarry and Joe Louis would have KTFO David Tua , and they probably watched some 20-50 fights more than I did but what does it prove about their perception of reality or about their lists ?

To have a ATG list requires you to watch literaly thousands of fights

Really ? were there thousands of that important HW fights alone throught history ?
I compiled a HW all time list , not a P4P / all weights list.
I also wonder how many here actually watched thousand let alone thousands of fights. I watched dozens , probably more than 100.
And I watched almost each one more than 3 times in average.
It helps to prevent typing bs like you do.

How does this help your case? If he cant ko the elite fighters he faced then he isnt going to ko any prime version of Tyson.

Cause Tyson was unstoppable in his prime , right ?
A prime Tyson could KO a tiger with the whistling of his missed punches .
After all , you watched his fights against Green and someone.
You don't even consider the 18 pro fights (according to you) Tyson whom fought Jesse Fergusson as prime and you decided Berbick was terrified of him despite you claim you watched that fight.

Go and watch that fight again, when you have then get back to me

When was the last time you did ?

In order to take part in this debate you will have had to watch some Tyson fights from the 80's like: Holmes, Tucker, Thomas and Tubbs. The fact that you haven't basically disqualifies you from this debate. Which is why you have obviously been using boxrec stats and repeating Teddy Atlas nonsense like Tyson only beat guys who were afraid of him

So now you will tell me to watch every single Tyson fight I haven't seen yet just to face the awe of Tyson which BTW I never doubted ?
How many Tua fights have you seen ?
And I never repeated any Teddy Atlas sentence as I don't remember any and never heard too much from.

[GJC]

Tyson's prime was something like 1986/7 - 1996

I think you'd struggle to find any fighter in history with a 10 year prime and it certainly wasn't Tyson.
You miss the fact that a decent fighter can win fights against opponents who aren't as good even when not prime.
Tyson didn't have a good win after he came out of prison, the last win he had against what could be called a live body was against Ruddock