How good do you think Ray Robinson was............

[TheGreatA]

Because Shane Mosley is the naturally bigger guy, has fought at 147 for most of his career (unlike Armstrong, who never fought at 147 iirc), and he does not have 160 fights under his belt, as Armstrong did.

We will have to see what Shane Mosley does from here. If he goes on to have more big wins or fights other top contenders and puts up battles, then we'll know his fight with Floyd was more legitimate than we believe it to be with what we know know (coming off a big win over Marg and being #1 ranked WW).

If he goes on to get beat up in his next few fights or looks to be past it then we can say that Floyd beat up a guy at the tail end of his career who was running on fumes and a shell of his former self. I don't think that's the case as Mosley didn't look all that gassed as he did lost and clueless as to how to hit Floyd and stop getting countered.

As I said, Henry Armstrong made 19 title defenses at welterweight, which is the all-time record. Armstrong is also regarded as a top 3 ATG, while Mosley might make top 100. Armstrong, after losing to Robinson, still went onto be a good fighter until retiring after he felt he had been robbed of a win.

I'm not claiming that it was the same as beating Armstrong at his peak, but surely a win over the great Armstrong who was still the number 1 contender at the weight and 30 years of age should count on Robinson's record.

[StarshipTrooper]

Most recent example, Shane Mosley, the #3 (?) welterweight and he was done by the 4th round against Mayweather. Most of the heavyweights with the exception of Wlad and Haye who stay in great shape.
Arthur Abraham, Antonio Margarito, James Toney, Cotto.

A note on Wlad: While he DOES come in in shape he has a notoriously small gas tank. That's the reason his punch output is so low: He paces himself to throw the minimum number of punches he can get away with. Back when he fought at a normal pace he was gassing well inside the 12 round limit. It's a clear constrast between him and Vitali: Vitali can keep up a solid pace without gassing.

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

If he goes on to get beat up in his next few fights or looks to be past it then we can say that Floyd beat up a guy at the tail end of his career who was running on fumes and a shell of his former self. I don't think that's the case as Mosley didn't look all that gassed as he did lost and clueless as to how to hit Floyd and stop getting countered.

You know that's not how it will go down: If Shane looks shot from here on out the *****s will just say that Mayweather fought a prime Mosely and Floyd ruined him.

Poet

[DeepSleep]

Beautiful post. I could give Carlos credit if he said boxers today are bigger/stronger maybe since I think it's obvious they have more muscle and size then the fighters back then since the science in getting bigger is so much better then back then. But to say they weren't in shape is ludicrous.

Fighter's are bigger now because they don't weigh in the same day of the fight so they can come in +20 lbs over the weight limit. For example Joshua Clottey wouldn't be a WW in 1945, he wouldn't even make it at MW if he came in at his usual ring weight of 167lbs. So the main reason today's fighters are "bigger" is because a WW during the days of the same day weight in couldn't weigh 165 lbs the day of the fight.

Also Carlos you really think Floyd would handle LaMotta at MW? Floyd's work-rate has gone down so much as he went up the ranks that at JMW he couldn't even get a UD against an ODH who landed close to 0 clean punches. LaMotta would have no reason to respect anything Floyd threw at him and would bull him around and rough him up pretty bad. Floyd is too small to fight at 160.

[CarlosG815]

Fighter's are bigger now because they don't weigh in the same day of the fight so they can come in +20 lbs over the weight limit. For example Joshua Clottey wouldn't be a WW in 1945, he wouldn't even make it at MW if he came in at his usual ring weight of 167lbs. So the main reason today's fighters are "bigger" is because a WW during the days of the same day weight in couldn't weigh 165 lbs the day of the fight.

Also Carlos you really think Floyd would handle LaMotta at MW? Floyd's work-rate has gone down so much as he went up the ranks that at JMW he couldn't even get a UD against an ODH who landed close to 0 clean punches. LaMotta would have no reason to respect anything Floyd threw at him and would bull him around and rough him up pretty bad. Floyd is too small to fight at 160.

Let me rephrase. A fighter like Lamotta. AKA, an Arturo Gatti type fighter. Lamotta was much bigger than Floyd naturally, so to throw him in is like saying, Floyd is better p4p than Larry Holmes. Maybe, so, but he's getting KTFO. I still think Floyd has a chance against Lamotta, but with the size difference it's going to be tough. Floyd is still a better fighter, and p4p would have little trouble with Jake, which is not the case with SRR. SRR struggled with Jake everytime, and even lost one. I'm not saying SRR isn't great, I'm just suggesting that before everyone jump on the bandwagon and claim SRR is the GOAT without so much as seeing a single fight (which I would guess most have seen 2 at the most), take a look at him in the ring and create an honest evaluation for themselves.

My argument is solely that the majority of his opposition was malnourished and lacked conditioning.

Was Armstrong a better p4p fighter than SRR? I believe so. You bet your ass, by a longshot. Was SRR great? Of course he was. I think he get's over rated though by people with nostalgia. It seems that the first one to do something gets the most recognition. Honestly, it doesn't matter how good you are, there are people who will always say the guy from 80 years ago, who was the GOAT first, was better, even if it isn't true.

I think modern day fighters are better than fighters from the old days. Don't hate on me for my opinion - believe what you want. I also believe modern American muscle is better than old school American muscle. They're quicker, more fuel efficient, handle better, and have more features. Hate on me? Go ahead, I've had that debate with many old school racers as well. I just call it as I see it.

I've had a few drinks, my friends in the history section. I am leaving in the AM out of the state to see my favorite up and comer get his next KO. I will check this thread again from my hotel and am looking forward to a good debate on the Great Sugar Ray Robinson.

[NChristo]

A note on Wlad: While he DOES come in in shape he has a notoriously small gas tank. That's the reason his punch output is so low: He paces himself to throw the minimum number of punches he can get away with. Back when he fought at a normal pace he was gassing well inside the 12 round limit. It's a clear constrast between him and Vitali: Vitali can keep up a solid pace without gassing.

Poet

You know come to think of it I don't know why I mentioned Haye either, he's notorious for gassing early at his fights in Cruiser, he seemed fine at HW so far though.

[NChristo]

Let me rephrase. A fighter like Lamotta. AKA, an Arturo Gatti type fighter. Lamotta was much bigger than Floyd naturally, so to throw him in is like saying, Floyd is better p4p than Larry Holmes. Maybe, so, but he's getting KTFO. I still think Floyd has a chance against Lamotta, but with the size difference it's going to be tough. Floyd is still a better fighter, and p4p would have little trouble with Jake, which is not the case with SRR. SRR struggled with Jake everytime, and even lost one. I'm not saying SRR isn't great, I'm just suggesting that before everyone jump on the bandwagon and claim SRR is the GOAT without so much as seeing a single fight (which I would guess most have seen 2 at the most), take a look at him in the ring and create an honest evaluation for themselves.

I think you're severely underestimating LaMotta here, Floyd doesn't have the power to trouble LaMotta and is in no way beating him, you need to actually fight to win and with Floyd most of the time only pot shotting that isn't going to work, no matter the weight.

I've seen plenty of Robinsons fights including 4 or 5 at Welter and I have "evaluated" that Robinson is easily top 3 skill wise, what he did to Fullmer is a thing only Floyd can dream off.

Was Armstrong a better p4p fighter than SRR? I believe so. You bet your ass, by a longshot.

I'm a huge fan of Armstrong and have studied his style as much as I can, I'm going to agree with you here but not by a long shot, no one is better then Robinson by a long shot in any way.
Probably the only reason I'm saying Armstrong is better fighter is because I'm more of a fan lol.

[McGrain]

He's the best fighter i've ever seen on film.

[TheGreatA]

My argument is solely that the majority of his opposition was malnourished and lacked conditioning.

The problem with that argument is that it's just plain wrong, simple as that.

LaMotta was also not an Arturo Gatti type of fighter. It's like saying that Joe Frazier, Rocky Marciano and Henry Armstrong are Arturo Gatti type of fighters. Gatti was a fair boxer with some talent who got drawn into brawls and usually pulled off the win because of his size and power advantages, not a relentless pressure/infighter who bothered many great fighters.

Armstrong was one of the best ever, but what makes him so much better than Robinson? He had one gear for the most part, and that was to come forward, while Robinson had several.

[BennyST]

Let me rephrase. A fighter like Lamotta. AKA, an Arturo Gatti type fighter.

If you think Lamotta fought even vaguely similar to Gatti, you've very obviously never watched him, or done anything resembling research on the guys you are saying suck.

Gatti was a classic boxer/puncher who fought on the outside. Lamotta fought on the inside purely. He was actually very good at slipping, rolling, ducking, getting under and using his shoulders, head, elbows etc inside to stop from being hit much.

There is a laughable idea that everyone from that era was a face first brawler. I think you'll find even the best pro boxers today that are defensively brilliant on the outside and inside all got their moves from 'old school' fighters. Mayweather, Hopkins and Toney will all say exactly that. They admire them and learned their skills from them because they can see what you are missing.

The inside fighting ability of fighters from that era is so much better than anyone fighting today not named Hopkins, Toney or Mayweather that it makes it seem like those particular guys are something ultra unique and special. The moves they use were common fighting techniques throughout that whole era.

On fighters being bigger: Again, you are entirely mistaken. The one reason fighters are so much bigger (and they are not better trained) is because there is more focus on muscle development (which usually will hinder a lot of fighters) and the weight issue of being able to weigh in a day after which allows a LW, or Ww to come in as high as 160 to 170. When you fought in that era you fought like Pac does now (ie weighing 147 at fight time) and Mayweather used to. People say Mayweather is a small WW. It's only because he used to weigh in at the limit. That's what it used to be like for every fighter back then. If you wanted to compete, you had to be in serious shape to make weight or you couldn't do it or had to move up to a much higher weight (ie. two divisions in today's world) in which you got blasted out by someone who did come into it in shape.

Your biased view is ludicrous. Try to really understand what you are talking about first. Immediately taking the view that everything today is better is simply not true.