How good do you think Ray Robinson was............

[NChristo]

And honestly what makes you believe that fighters today can "barely go 12 rounds?" Fighters today could fight 20 rounds if they had to, it's all mental.

From observation, the boxers of today can barely go 12 rounds, it's kind of embarrassing at the state of some of them compared to most of the old times boxers.

Obviously there are exceptions but the vast majority of todays boxers are out of it before the 12th.

[CarlosG815]

You need to be green K'd and BADLY. To bad I can't give out anymore today but your definitely getting some tomorrow.

Beautiful post. I could give Carlos credit if he said boxers today are bigger/stronger maybe since I think it's obvious they have more muscle and size then the fighters back then since the science in getting bigger is so much better then back then. But to say they weren't in shape is ludicrous.

I'm not saying the greats of the past weren't in shape. They were very in shape. The majority of opposition they faced weren't in very good shape, weren't well fed, and weren't as well conditioned as fighters today. I don't see how this is even debatable.

How do you really explain people fighting 200 career fights? Fighting 10x a month? How do you fight guys as good as Pacquiao, Shane Mosley, Floyd, DLH, Trinidad, etc... That kind of opposition can only be faced bi monthly if you wanna set records. Sure you can fight 10x a month if you're fighting guys that aren't on your level.

[CarlosG815]

Observation, the boxers of today can barely go 12 rounds, it's kind of embarrassing at the state of some of them compared to most of the old times boxers.

Obviously there are exceptions but the vast majority of todays boxers are out of it before the 12th.

Please tell me a few of the vast majority you are referring to?

[TheGreatA]

Jake LaMotta is one guy in particular who was well known to always have issues making weight with his out of camp eating habits. And honestly what makes you believe that fighters today can "barely go 12 rounds?" Fighters today could fight 20 rounds if they had to, it's all mental. If you can fight 12 you can fight 15, if you can fight 15 you can go 20 if need be. There is nothing to suggest that fighters can not go 15 rounds today, so what are you talking about?

GreatA please list all the great fighters that Ray Robinson faced and what they did for a day job, what notice they took the fight on, and what their accomplishments prior to Ray and post Ray.

LaMotta is the one example that did drain himself to make weight during the latter part of his career, but he fought less frequently by then.

There are several fights that I've seen recently where a boxer hasn't been able to go 12 and in some cases the boxer would have had major problems going 15. Brian Viloria was highly regarded, he gassed out completely in the 12th and was stopped, Jermain Taylor has always had trouble going 12, Joshua Clottey has to pace himself and as a result has been outworked in his biggest fights, Lucian Bute was finished in round 12 during his first fight with Andrade, Juan Manuel Lopez was spent in the 12th against Mtagwa, Cotto was spent against Margarito, Clottey and Pacquiao. I can come up with more examples.

Listing all the great fighters Robinson fought and what they did would take too much time. I instruct you to check out the IBHOF:

http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...ern/zivic.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...rn/angott.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...armstrong.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...n/gavilan.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...rn/turpin.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...n/lamotta.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte.../graziano.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...n/fullmer.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...ern/olson.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...n/basilio.html

If you're going to say that I don't "know" about these fighters then I must tell you that you are mistaken. I've done research and acquired films of them to get a clear view on how good they were. It's not that difficult, although admittedly it's more difficult than writing nonsense about them being doormen and taxi drivers who didn't even train.

[NChristo]

Please tell me a few of the vast majority you are referring to?

Most recent example, Shane Mosley, the #3 (?) welterweight and he was done by the 4th round against Mayweather. Most of the heavyweights with the exception of Wlad and Haye who stay in great shape.
Arthur Abraham, Antonio Margarito, James Toney, Cotto.

[boxing boy]

SRR was the greatest fighter p4p of all-time.

That's what i think about him!

[CarlosG815]

LaMotta is the one example that did drain himself to make weight during the latter part of his career, but he fought less frequently by then.

There are several fights that I've seen recently where a boxer hasn't been able to go 12 and in some cases the boxer would have had major problems going 15. Brian Viloria was highly regarded, he gassed out completely in the 12th and was stopped, Jermain Taylor has always had trouble going 12, Joshua Clottey has to pace himself and as a result has been outworked in his biggest fights, Lucian Bute was finished in round 12 during his first fight with Andrade, Juan Manuel Lopez was spent in the 12th against Mtagwa, Cotto was spent against Margarito, Clottey and Pacquiao. I can come up with more examples.

Listing all the great fighters Robinson fought and what they did would take too much time. I instruct you to check out the IBHOF:

http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...ern/zivic.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...rn/angott.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...armstrong.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...n/gavilan.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...rn/turpin.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...n/lamotta.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte.../graziano.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...n/fullmer.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...ern/olson.html
http://ibhof.com/pages/about/inducte...n/basilio.html

If you're going to say that I don't "know" about these fighters then I must tell you that you are mistaken. I've done research and acquired films of them to get a clear view on how good they were. It's not that difficult, although admittedly it's more difficult than writing nonsense about them being doormen and taxi drivers who didn't even train.

I will look into that later when I have more time. I do notice that you have Henry Armstrong on there who was a natural featherweight/lightweight, and fought SRR at the tail end of his career. Had he not been a naturally significantly smaller guy, this win would hold a little more water, but since Armstrong was far past it, a year from the end of his career, and significantly smaller it kind of takes away from the prestige of having a win over the Great Henry Armstrong on your resume.

[TheGreatA]

I will look into that later when I have more time. I do notice that you have Henry Armstrong on there who was a natural featherweight/lightweight, and fought SRR at the tail end of his career. Had he not been a naturally significantly smaller guy, this win would hold a little more water, but since Armstrong was far past it, a year from the end of his career, and significantly smaller it kind of takes away from the prestige of having a win over the Great Henry Armstrong on your resume.

Armstrong was a force of nature who had 19 title defenses at welterweight, and usually weighed around 140 lbs from 1939 onwards. By the time he fought Robinson, he was past his prime, but not shot as he was still rated the number 1 welterweight contender in the world, with recent wins over several top ranked lightweights and welterweights. Robinson had to beat him in order to be recognized as the best himself.

If Mayweather gets credit for beating a 38 year old Shane Mosley, why not Robinson for beating a 30 year old Armstrong?

[Roy Keane]

i think the thing is people are abit "soft" these days professional fighters included, although i dont know alot about robinson or his era its easy to see they dont have a problem with going 15 20 rounds completly different mind sets due to society etc etc during there time... today if you ask elite fighters to fight 15+ rounds more then 5 times a year you'd be told to go fcuk yourself.

i think its fair to say robinson fought his fair share of cans but also alot of great fighters.

[CarlosG815]

Armstrong was a force of nature who had 19 title defenses at welterweight, and usually weighed around 140 lbs from 1939 onwards. By the time he fought Robinson, he was past his prime, but not shot as he was still rated the number 1 welterweight contender in the world, with recent wins over several top ranked lightweights and welterweights. Robinson had to beat him in order to be recognized as the best himself.

If Mayweather gets credit for beating a 38 year old Shane Mosley, why not Robinson for beating a 30 year old Armstrong?

Because Shane Mosley is the naturally bigger guy, has fought at 147 for most of his career (unlike Armstrong, who never fought at 147 iirc), and he does not have 160 fights under his belt, as Armstrong did.

We will have to see what Shane Mosley does from here. If he goes on to have more big wins or fights other top contenders and puts up battles, then we'll know his fight with Floyd was more legitimate than we believe it to be with what we know know (coming off a big win over Marg and being #1 ranked WW).

If he goes on to get beat up in his next few fights or looks to be past it then we can say that Floyd beat up a guy at the tail end of his career who was running on fumes and a shell of his former self. I don't think that's the case as Mosley didn't look all that gassed as he did lost and clueless as to how to hit Floyd and stop getting countered.