Is Jack Dempsey Overrated?

[mickey malone]

I don't think he quite belongs in the top 10, and if that's considered underrating him, then best i give my reasons..
Before winning the world title, he'd amassed 50 odd ko's mainly against no hopers.. I'd say up until beating Willard his best wins were against Fred Fulton and Battling Levinsky..
Other than that, he'd easily thwarted up and comers Billy Miske and Bill Brennan, and knowing full well he had their number, chose them for 2 of his 7 title defenses.. The others were light-heavy, Georges Carpentier, who I believe had won the European HW title, Tommy Gibbons, another LH who had been easily beaten by Tunney, Jimmy Darcey, who was just an average journeyman, and the limited but powerful Luis Angel Firpo.. It's also worth a metion that inbetween his 2 loses to Tunney, he had a good ko win over a young Jack Sharkey..

I won't go into the, he didn't fight Wills, Jeannette, Langford and McVey argument, as the last 3 were way past prime, and would have lost to Sharkey, let alone Dempsey..
I believe Wills had already lost to Sharkey twice, so an argument could be made he wasn't eligable for a shot..
However, when you consider the above, you also have to remember there is also no Harry Greb, no Kid Norfolk, no Young Stribling, no Battling Siki and no Paulino Uzcudon..
And if he had those names on his resume, then i'd probably have him in my top 10, so i think it's fair to say, i'm one of those who thinks he's overrated.. I think Gene Tunney is the underrated one, overall, he was a better fighter than Dempsey, but was aloof in comparison amongst fight fans..

I know people were a lot easier to please back in the 20's, but beating 6 mediocre HW opposition in 7 years, doesn't really cut it with me, but he's definitely one of my favorite fighters to watch and if he were around these days, would have at least one belt..

[EzzardFan]

I don't think he quite belongs in the top 10, and if that's considered underrating him, then best i give my reasons..
Before winning the world title, he'd amassed 50 odd ko's mainly against no hopers.. I'd say up until beating Willard his best wins were against Fred Fulton and Battling Levinsky..
Other than that, he'd easily thwarted up and comers Billy Miske and Bill Brennan, and knowing full well he had their number, chose them for 2 of his 7 title defenses.. The others were light-heavy, Georges Carpentier, who I believe had won the European HW title, Tommy Gibbons, another LH who had been easily beaten by Tunney, Jimmy Darcey, who was just an average journeyman, and the limited but powerful Luis Angel Firpo.. It's also worth a metion that inbetween his 2 loses to Tunney, he had a good ko win over a young Jack Sharkey..

I won't go into the, he didn't fight Wills, Jeannette, Langford and McVey argument, as the last 3 were way past prime, and would have lost to Sharkey, let alone Dempsey..
I believe Wills had already lost to Sharkey twice, so an argument could be made he wasn't eligable for a shot..
However, when you consider the above, you also have to remember there is also no Harry Greb, no Kid Norfolk, no Young Stribling, no Battling Siki and no Paulino Uzcudon..
And if he had those names on his resume, then i'd probably have him in my top 10, so i think it's fair to say, i'm one of those who thinks he's overrated.. I think Gene Tunney is the underrated one, overall, he was a better fighter than Dempsey, but was aloof in comparison amongst fight fans..

I know people were a lot easier to please back in the 20's, but beating 6 mediocre HW opposition in 7 years, doesn't really cut it with me, but he's definitely one of my favorite fighters to watch and if he were around these days, would have at least one belt..

I agree with most of what you have typed. Except you must take into account that Dempsey had a long and relatively inactive reign as champ and that Wills was probably close to his peak at the time Dempsey ascended the HW throne, and only really a fully spent force in the final year of his reign.

Dempsey beat Willard on 4th July 1919. He lost to Tunny on 23rd September 1926. Between those dates Wills fought an incredible 41 bouts losing only one which was through disqualification. Yup that's F O R T Y wins during that period and no actual defeat. He fought everyone and anyone ducking nobody. Dempsey only fought 6 times and I fully support your critique of his opposition. There is no doubt in my mind that from mid 1917 until at least the beginning of 1925 that Wills was easily the best HW on this planet.

[mickey malone]

I agree with most of what you have typed. Except you must take into account that Dempsey had a long and relatively inactive reign as champ and that Wills was probably close to his peak at the time Dempsey ascended the HW throne, and only really a fully spent force in the final year of his reign.

Dempsey beat Willard on 4th July 1919. He lost to Tunny on 23rd September 1926. Between those dates Wills fought an incredible 41 bouts losing only one which was through disqualification. Yup that's F O R T Y wins during that period and no actual defeat. He fought everyone and anyone ducking nobody. Dempsey only fought 6 times and I fully support your critique of his opposition. There is no doubt in my mind that from mid 1917 until at least the beginning of 1925 that Wills was easily the best HW on this planet.

Yep, fair play, Wills wasn't beaten by Sharkey until 1926.
My bad, Wills had more than earned his right as a contender.. I take it you'd pick Wills over Dempsey then?

[GJC]

I've always thought that Wills was made for Dempsey personally and that them not fighting really tarnishes Dempsey's legacy and enhances Wills.

To be fair if you look at the HW champions before Dempsey there were a lot who didn't defend too much.
It was just the era, you won the title and it was sort of job done so make it pay and do exhibitions.

[EzzardFan]

Yep, fair play, Wills wasn't beaten by Sharkey until 1926.
My bad, Wills had more than earned his right as a contender.. I take it you'd pick Wills over Dempsey then?

Oh absolutely

[Thread Stealer]

To be fair if you look at the HW champions before Dempsey there were a lot who didn't defend too much.
It was just the era, you won the title and it was sort of job done so make it pay and do exhibitions.

That's true, but I don't think you can just excuse it in terms of all-time rankings because of the era. Fighters nowadays are unlikely to reach the rankings of fighters like Robinson or Charles, and the big reason is resume. That's the era too, a WW champ considered the best fighter in the sport is not going to fight over a dozen times a year because he'll make enough money with 2 or 3 fights.

[CarlosG815]

Don't forget in his rematch with Tunney he actually won that fight.

Just because the ref doesn't start the count for 5 seconds, that doesn't mean history should remember him as losing twice to Tunney when he had actually won.

[EzzardFan]

Don't forget in his rematch with Tunney he actually won that fight.

Just because the ref doesn't start the count for 5 seconds, that doesn't mean history should remember him as losing twice to Tunney when he had actually won.

It was Dempsey's camp who insisted on enforcement of the states neutral corner rule, and a rule is a rule. Would you have gotten up before you heard eight or nine? I wouldn't have. Would you have gotten up with Dempsey hovering over you, when he should be in a neutral corner? I wouldn't have.

Tunny won the fight fair and square. The rules have to apply to Dempsey same as any other fighter.

[StarshipTrooper]

It was Dempsey's camp who insisted on enforcement of the states neutral corner rule, and a rule is a rule. Would you have gotten up before you heard eight or nine? I wouldn't have. Would you have gotten up with Dempsey hovering over you, when he should be in a neutral corner? I wouldn't have.

Tunny won the fight fair and square. The rules have to apply to Dempsey same as any other fighter.

Exactly. The rule is when the ref's count reaches ten the fighter is KOed, not when ten seconds elapse; and ref's count doesn't start until the opponent goes to a neutral corner. So it's Dempsey's own damn fault if Tunney got extra time. The ref's count is the only count that's official.

Poet

[Schmerzen]

jack dempsey is underrated, at least today.