Could Muhammad Ali lay on the ropes against Mike Tyson?

[fight_professor]

I was pondering this thus yesterday. Now I pick Ali to beat Tyson 9/10 times. But a rope-a-dope is a no-no against Mike. Foreman was slow and telegraphed, a single shot puncher. Tyson had awesome speed and combination punching.

No one would take Tyson's precision shots like that.

[Benny Leonard]

Like I said, it's fine if you wanna explain how Tyson could've fought differently, if a whole series of events were played out differently. And not once, in this thread, did I talk about what stage of his career he was in. All I said was that Douglas went into the fight with the right strategy, and that Ali would wanna use that strategy.

Yes, the Douglas fight could've possibly played out differently, had things been different for Tyson. But are you gonna try and tell me that Douglas didn't have the right strategy for someone like Tyson? That he should've been scared? That he shouldn't haveboxed from the outside and to tie Tyson up every time he got close?



Fear might've worked well for those fighters, but that doesn't mean it works well for all fighters.

Tyson looked for fear in his opponents, as that gave him a mental edge. If his opponent wasn't intimidated by him, he wouldn't have that mental edge.

He tried to play the bully and intimidate his opponents. Douglas and Holyfield weren't intimidated and they both ended up out-bullying the bully.



I don't see what this has to do with my original post, but I'll comment that Tyson wasn't as mentally strong as Frazier or Norton. If someone wasn't intimated by him, a big part of Tyson would crumble.

As for Spinks, Holmes and Berbick, I would say that Ali being very far past his prime and experiencing symptoms of Parkinson's had something to do with those losses.

It was the right game-plan that Douglas used against Tyson...I don't deny that. But Tyson wasn't the same fighter that could counter that game-plan either let alone having his own proper game-plan to win. Tyson fought guys that were big, used the jab, used distance, even tied him up, etc...and still won.
Because Tyson wasn't particularly big, he relied heavily on his training to make him the fighter he was. Without that, he was closer to that same kid that just arrived in Catskill...which is important to note since with each fight away from Catskill, he kept going backwards to the point that it was mentioned in the Kevin McBride fight Tyson was biting his gloves...something he hadn't done since his amateur days (according to them). Each fight away you saw less and less of what he was taught and it was draining out of him.



Bully?
Are you telling me that if you weren't scared of Tyson and stood up to him you would win?
That is bull****.

Tyson's style was to be aggressive. He was always shorter than his opponents and many times he was given up a weight disadvantage as well...not to mention a reach advantage.
Tyson didn't have to rely on being a "bully" when he was properly trained. It wasn't until after he started to fall he relied on what he had built up in the past to help him get by because he was no longer that same skilled fighter. If anything, he became a bully but he wasn't a bully in his prime.
You can clearly see the difference in how Tyson performs in the ring as well as his interviews when he was with his original team compared to when King got a hold of him.


Listen, if Tyson is a bully then so is Ali. That's my point. Is it that simple? Stand up to Tyson and you win. Well, close your ears off to Ali and you will win. Frazier did; Norton did; Spinks did; Holmes did; Berbick did.

It's hard to tell because when Tyson fought Douglas, he wasn't the same fighter that won the title. Nor was he the same when he fought Holyfield. A little thing called a 3+ year layoff in Prison isn't to good for you...wouldn't you agree?
Plus...Tyson surely wasn't "back."

Brooks always held out hope for Iron Mike

http://espn.go.com/columns/wojnarows...n/1317765.html

See my point?

And the Bully thing doesn't always work.
George Foreman was said to be a "bully" and Frazier wasn't. Guess who was scared in that match? Foreman was...not Frazier. And guess who got his ass kicked for trying to stand up to the bully? Frazier.

How is a 5'11, 215 pound man putting fear into these bigger men who tended to have more experience?

"I don't try to intimidate anybody before a fight," Tyson said. "That's nonsense. I intimidate people by hitting them."

[res]

It was the right game-plan that Douglas used against Tyson...I don't deny that. But Tyson wasn't the same fighter that could counter that game-plan either let alone having his own proper game-plan to win. Tyson fought guys that were big, used the jab, used distance, even tied him up, etc...and still won.
Because Tyson wasn't particularly big, he relied heavily on his training to make him the fighter he was. Without that, he was closer to that same kid that just arrived in Catskill...which is important to note since with each fight away from Catskill, he kept going backwards to the point that it was mentioned in the Kevin McBride fight Tyson was biting his gloves...something he hadn't done since his amateur days (according to them). Each fight away you saw less and less of what he was taught and it was draining out of him.



Bully?
Are you telling me that if you weren't scared of Tyson and stood up to him you would win?
That is bull****.

Tyson's style was to be aggressive. He was always shorter than his opponents and many times he was given up a weight disadvantage as well...not to mention a reach advantage.
Tyson didn't have to rely on being a "bully" when he was properly trained. It wasn't until after he started to fall he relied on what he had built up in the past to help him get by because he was no longer that same skilled fighter. If anything, he became a bully but he wasn't a bully in his prime.
You can clearly see the difference in how Tyson performs in the ring as well as his interviews when he was with his original team compared to when King got a hold of him.


Listen, if Tyson is a bully then so is Ali. That's my point. Is it that simple? Stand up to Tyson and you win. Well, close your ears off to Ali and you will win. Frazier did; Norton did; Spinks did; Holmes did; Berbick did.

See my point?

And the Bully thing doesn't always work.
George Foreman was said to be a "bully" and Frazier wasn't. Guess who was scared in that match? Foreman was...not Frazier. And guess who got his ass kicked for trying to stand up to the bully? Frazier.

How is a 5'11, 215 pound man putting fear into these bigger men who tended to have more experience?

Why are you even using Holmes and Berbick as examples? That's like talking bout Tyson vs Kevin Mcbride. They had both been fighting for 20 years by that point.

[Benny Leonard]

Why are you even using Holmes and Berbick as examples? That's like talking bout Tyson vs Kevin Mcbride. They had both been fighting for 20 years by that point.

Because it is simple: Stand up to Tyson and you win. That's why they all beat him.

So close your ears off to Ali and you will win.

Both relied on intimidation and psychological warfare. That's all they had. Take that away from them and you win.

So simple this boxing thing is.

I'm making a point. It's not always what it seems to be. People just like to stick to the simplest things possible to explain something but it doesn't always work.

I added some more to that post by the way.

[QuietOne]

It was the right game-plan that Douglas used against Tyson...I don't deny that. But Tyson wasn't the same fighter that could counter that game-plan either let alone having his own proper game-plan to win. Tyson fought guys that were big, used the jab, used distance, even tied him up, etc...and still won.
Because Tyson wasn't particularly big, he relied heavily on his training to make him the fighter he was. Without that, he was closer to that same kid that just arrived in Catskill...which is important to note since with each fight away from Catskill, he kept going backwards to the point that it was mentioned in the Kevin McBride fight Tyson was biting his gloves...something he hadn't done since his amateur days (according to them). Each fight away you saw less and less of what he was taught and it was draining out of him.

Are you ****ing ****** or something? Why do you keep talking about Tyson's condition, training camp and fighting style? All I said was that Douglas had the right stategy against Tyson and that Ali would wanna use that same strategy. What does

Bully?
Are you telling me that if you weren't scared of Tyson and stood up to him you would win?
That is bull****.

Tyson's style was to be aggressive. He was always shorter than his opponents and many times he was given up a weight disadvantage as well...not to mention a reach advantage.
Tyson didn't have to rely on being a "bully" when he was properly trained. It wasn't until after he started to fall he relied on what he had built up in the past to help him get by because he was no longer that same skilled fighter. If anything, he became a bully but he wasn't a bully in his prime.
You can clearly see the difference in how Tyson performs in the ring as well as his interviews when he was with his original team compared to when King got a hold of him.


Listen, if Tyson is a bully then so is Ali. That's my point. Is it that simple? Stand up to Tyson and you win. Well, close your ears off to Ali and you will win. Frazier did; Norton did; Spinks did; Holmes did; Berbick did.

It's hard to tell because when Tyson fought Douglas, he wasn't the same fighter that won the title. Nor was he the same when he fought Holyfield. A little thing called a 3+ year layoff in Prison isn't to good for you...wouldn't you agree?
Plus...Tyson surely wasn't "back."

Brooks always held out hope for Iron Mike

http://espn.go.com/columns/wojnarows...n/1317765.html

See my point?

And the Bully thing doesn't always work.
George Foreman was said to be a "bully" and Frazier wasn't. Guess who was scared in that match? Foreman was...not Frazier. And guess who got his ass kicked for trying to stand up to the bully? Frazier.

How is a 5'11, 215 pound man putting fear into these bigger men who tended to have more experience?

"I don't try to intimidate anybody before a fight," Tyson said. "That's nonsense. I intimidate people by hitting them."

Are you out of your mind or something? Why do you keep talking about Tyson's condition, training camp and fighting style? You've been replying with that since my first post, in which I stated that Douglas had the right stategy against Tyson and that Ali would wanna use that same strategy. What does bringing up all those things about Tyson have to do with it? Who cares whether or not he was in his prime against Douglas. The point is that Douglas had the right strategy.

I never said they would automatically win, if they weren't intimidated by Tyson. I said that Tyson wouldn't have that mental edge. Don't try and twist words around.

Tyson's fighting style is considered to be one of a bully's. Maybe he's not much of a bully verbally, but physically he is. And the physical part plays a mental note on his opponents.

Who cares if he was smaller? Just because you're smaller means you can't be a bully?

Please, tell me what exactly you're trying to prove. I still don't know. And please tell me why you bothered replying to me in the first place with something unrelated to the topic.

[them_apples]

What do you think? Could Muhammad Ali lay on the ropes against Mike Tyson?

no. Tyson was too good when he got you on the ropes. Ali needs to try and do what he did to Frazier, grab and punch on the move and hopefully get him in the later rounds. He lies on the ropes Tyson finishes him and the ref steps in (can't see Ali actually getting koed).

Ali's real chance is the late rounds where he can either get a Ud or a Ko. wouldn't be surprised with either. I'd bank on Tyson hurting Ali early and even knocking him down though.

It's hard to tell what would go on though prime for prime, we never really saw Tyson lose heart in his prime, he had a great corner and made adjustments. In his comeback or later years It's a sure win for Ali in the late rounds when Tyson becomes frustrated and one dimensional.

[them_apples]

Because it is simple: Stand up to Tyson and you win. That's why they all beat him.

So close your ears off to Ali and you will win.

Both relied on intimidation and psychological warfare. That's all they had. Take that away from them and you win.

So simple this boxing thing is.

I'm making a point. It's not always what it seems to be. People just like to stick to the simplest things possible to explain something but it doesn't always work.

I added some more to that post by the way.

good post. It's very true for both of them. Physically strong guys with mental strength could deal with Tyson. I have a strong feeling that if you never listened to Ali, he wouldn't have been as good as he said he was either. Especailly in his comeback.

but hey, boxing is very mental...it takes a special type of fighter with those kind of nerve's.

[Suckmedry]

Lying on the ropes with a guy like Mike would be too dangerous, he's too fast and explosive, plus he throws tight, short punches and moves his head well.

Ali got away with it vs George because while George was a huge puncher, he throws wide shots, isn't a fluid combination puncher, and is not that fast.

Ali would know this, and would have fought Mike the smart way, present a moving target, stick him with the jab and right hand, rough him up, push his head down, tie him up in close, taunt him, don't get caught pulling straight backwards, use the sides etc Then open up more and more as the fight wears on and Mike starts to get frustrated

Ali was a smart fighter.

[DeepSleep]

Because it is simple: Stand up to Tyson and you win. That's why they all beat him.

So close your ears off to Ali and you will win.

Both relied on intimidation and psychological warfare. That's all they had. Take that away from them and you win.

So simple this boxing thing is.

I'm making a point. It's not always what it seems to be. People just like to stick to the simplest things possible to explain something but it doesn't always work.

I added some more to that post by the way.

I think your over-estimating Ali's mouth. There are quite a few fighter's who didn't play along with Ali's verbal antics and got smoked. Also I think Frazier didn't take Ali's verbal jousting very well and he did as good as any fighter did against the post-prime Ali.

[neoaquino]

What do you think? Could Muhammad Ali lay on the ropes against Mike Tyson?

ohhh good question but i think tyson on his prime will kill ali, getting cornered by tyson is not a good idea for ali, hes rope a dope will not work, one solid punch and ali will go down