Could Muhammad Ali lay on the ropes against Mike Tyson?

[Verstyle]

Hell no he wouldn't. Tyson would choose his shots and rest just like Ali was, except his resting is tying up.

[Benny Leonard]

Are you out of your mind or something? Why do you keep talking about Tyson's condition, training camp and fighting style? You've been replying with that since my first post, in which I stated that Douglas had the right stategy against Tyson and that Ali would wanna use that same strategy. What does bringing up all those things about Tyson have to do with it? Who cares whether or not he was in his prime against Douglas. The point is that Douglas had the right strategy.

I never said they would automatically win, if they weren't intimidated by Tyson. I said that Tyson wouldn't have that mental edge. Don't try and twist words around.

Tyson's fighting style is considered to be one of a bully's. Maybe he's not much of a bully verbally, but physically he is. And the physical part plays a mental note on his opponents.

Who cares if he was smaller? Just because you're smaller means you can't be a bully?

Please, tell me what exactly you're trying to prove. I still don't know. And please tell me why you bothered replying to me in the first place with something unrelated to the topic.

Strategy: Douglas's strategy wasn't so shocking that Tyson hadn't seen any parts of it before. Tyson was no longer trained to deal with it. Now if you want to say...so what...that strategy now works...OK; I'm cool with that. Douglas had the "right" strategy for what he could do which was smart and he was able to most likely get away with it because of what Tyson no longer could do. That's my point.
Although...another side to it which may be yours is that may be one of few strategies to use against Tyson and it is up to the talent of the fighter to use it against Tyson. That could be.

Tyson's mental edge for him is more about him knowing he is prepared to win. The opponent doesn't matter quite as much as people make it out to be. Tyson knew he would be met with an opponent that was bigger then him; stronger than him; even an opponent that could take his best shot and wouldn't back up. Tyson trained for that. He said it himself. That's why he trained as a "boxer" and not just some brawler. His attitude was eventually he would get to you no matter what you throw at him or how you feel; he'll get you.

Bully: he was aggressive. How else was he supposed to fight...especially fighters that are bigger than him?
Was Frazier a bully?
How about Jack Dempsey?
Rocky Marciano?
Roberto Duran?

I just want to see which fighters we want to just throw the "bully" label on.

Now if you want to give time periods of Tyson being a "bully"...OK...maybe I'm fine with that.

Point with size: These are PRO FIGHTERS. The problem I have with "bully" in boxing is that it is link to much with the school-yard bully who beats up on some small nerdy kid. Tyson was not only smaller than most of his opponents, he wasn't always stronger either. They were also trained Fighters so he wasn't taking advantage of them like the little old ladies Atlas said Tyson used to rob in the streets. That's why he trained. To beat other trained fighters ready to kick his ass.
He needed a certain edge to stand up to them since they usually were bigger, stronger, and fully matured. So he used a trained aggressive style.

If you want, I can even say Ali was a "bully" with the way he treated his opponents if we want to make the word so broad.


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[Benny Leonard]

I think your over-estimating Ali's mouth. There are quite a few fighter's who didn't play along with Ali's verbal antics and got smoked. Also I think Frazier didn't take Ali's verbal jousting very well and he did as good as any fighter did against the post-prime Ali.

I was over-stating it to make a point.

People believe to much of this crap that they are fed: Stand up to the bully and you will win. So I wanted to prove a point with Ali as well since he used words to influence how his opponents fought. Even if they became angry, the fought harder and when they fought harder, the made mistakes and burnt out quicker...like Foreman.

But would it be so simple to just close off your ears to Ali and you win?
HELL NO.

Ali can talk all the **** he wants to me and not let it effect me. I may even rip him back and I can be harsh with words. But would that change the fight if I would get in the ring with him?
HELL NO. He is 6'3, strong, solid chin, fast as lightning...and is a ****ing Great Boxer. He would beat the **** out of me. I'm more concerned with what Ali can do as a Boxer/Fighter than what he says before the damn match.

Same with Tyson. I can laugh right in the face of Tyson (even though it wouldn't be a good idea). Not care one bit of him trying to stare me down. And I can talk trash right back to his face. When the bell rings, go right after him and show him I'm not scared to fight him. Would that matter? Hell NO. He would **** me up.

"I don't try to intimidate anybody before a fight," Tyson said. "That's nonsense. I intimidate people by hitting them."

I'm not dismissing the psychological part to this all. It's a key part. The Mental side to it is something in boxing and in life in general. But for people to stick with easy lines like "He's a bully; stand up to him and you will win."

There is a reason why Teddy Atlas brought a gun when he threatened
a 15 year old Mike Tyson. Think about that.

[Schmerzen]

peak tyson would beat the ali of the foreman fight, but it would be still competitive.
if ali fights the way he did against liston in the first fight, i just see tyson having a punchers chance in the early rounds.
i dont think tyson could do something liston couldnt, that version of ali would beat him 5/5.

[sonnyboyx2]

What do you think? Could Muhammad Ali lay on the ropes against Mike Tyson?

Ali never lay on the ropes against Foreman, he used the ropes but never just stood there taking shots

[Benny Leonard]

Ali never lay on the ropes against Foreman, he used the ropes but never just stood there taking shots

There were moments where he was up against the ropes and in a shell taking Foreman's shots in order to wear Foreman out.

[QuietOne]

Strategy: Douglas's strategy wasn't so shocking that Tyson hadn't seen any parts of it before. Tyson was no longer trained to deal with it. Now if you want to say...so what...that strategy now works...OK; I'm cool with that. Douglas had the "right" strategy for what he could do which was smart and he was able to most likely get away with it because of what Tyson no longer could do. That's my point.
Although...another side to it which may be yours is that may be one of few strategies to use against Tyson and it is up to the talent of the fighter to use it against Tyson. That could be.

My first post, in this thread:

It wouldn't be a good idea. Tyson isn't someone you wanna take punches from, even if your goal is to make your opponent tire himself out.

I imagine that Ali would tie Tyson up, everytime he gets close. Just like Buster Douglas did.

I said Ali would tie Tyson up, every time he gets close. The majority of people seem to agree with me. Now, did Douglas or did Douglas not tie Tyson up every time he got close, as well? Try and answer that, without talking about how Tyson's training camp went (because it doesn't change the fact that he did).

Tyson's mental edge for him is more about him knowing he is prepared to win. The opponent doesn't matter quite as much as people make it out to be. Tyson knew he would be met with an opponent that was bigger then him; stronger than him; even an opponent that could take his best shot and wouldn't back up. Tyson trained for that. He said it himself. That's why he trained as a "boxer" and not just some brawler. His attitude was eventually he would get to you no matter what you throw at him or how you feel; he'll get you.

Tyson talking about how intimidation works for him:



Note the quote: "I knew how to beat these guys psychologically, before I even got into the ring with them."

Bully: he was aggressive. How else was he supposed to fight...especially fighters that are bigger than him?
Was Frazier a bully?
How about Jack Dempsey?
Rocky Marciano?
Roberto Duran?

I just want to see which fighters we want to just throw the "bully" label on.

Now if you want to give time periods of Tyson being a "bully"...OK...maybe I'm fine with that.

In boxing, a bully is someone who relies on intimidation and tries to hurt his opponent very quickly. Fighters like Liston, Foreman and Tyson are commonly labeled as bullies.

Who you wanna label as bully is up to you. But go ahead and ask everyone else on this forum whether or not Tyson should've been labeled as a bully. I think you'll find the results in my favor.

Point with size: These are PRO FIGHTERS. The problem I have with "bully" in boxing is that it is link to much with the school-yard bully who beats up on some small nerdy kid. Tyson was not only smaller than most of his opponents, he wasn't always stronger either. They were also trained Fighters so he wasn't taking advantage of them like the little old ladies Atlas said Tyson used to rob in the streets. That's why he trained. To beat other trained fighters ready to kick his ass.
He needed a certain edge to stand up to them since they usually were bigger, stronger, and fully matured. So he used a trained aggressive style.

Being a bully doesn't mean you have to be bigger than everyone else. Tyson was more intimidating, carried more power and was arguably stronger than most of his opponents.

If you were the victim, who would you be more intimidated by?:

1) a taller guy, who had less of a punch and didn't rely on intimidation
2) a shorter guy, who had more of a punch and did rely on intimidation

If you want, I can even say Ali was a "bully" with the way he treated his opponents if we want to make the word so broad.

Ali's fighting style was not one of a bullies, though. He's the one that would make his opponents come after him, while he was sort of trying to avoid them.

If you wanna call Ali sort of a verbal bully, then that's fine.. I guess.

[boxingbuff]

I think Muhammad Ali would be talking to Tyson while laying on the ropes.

To make Tyson mad and throwing hard punches non stop.To make him punch himself out.Either it would work or Tyson would KO him.

[Benny Leonard]

QUOTE=quietone;7965385]My first post, in this thread:



I said Ali would tie Tyson up, every time he gets close. The majority of people seem to agree with me. Now, did Douglas or did Douglas not tie Tyson up every time he got close, as well? Try and answer that, without talking about how Tyson's training camp went (because it doesn't change the fact that he did).

First off, let me start out by saying...Touche, my good man for a good conversation.
I am stretching my thoughts a bit more but there is a reason to that.

I agree with you with that; Ali would try to tie Tyson up when in close. But you have to remember that Tyson allowed the clinch to happen often if not out-right did it himself in order to get a rest...or even to get himself in close so that he could use sudden bursts of explosion combinations if he was able to. Depends on how tight the clinch was. He worked well at a mid-distance range. Clinching can be used as rest.

Most of his inside way of fighting where he out-right attacked the body was more early in his career before he won the title as far as a key attack. As he matured as a fighter and it was more likely the opponent was going to last longer because maybe they were a combination of being big, strong, and experienced; he adjusted his tactic and used pin-point shots to attack the body at certain key moments of the fight.

Tyson vs. Douglas: look at the fight again though...Tyson was looking to clinch early on and throughout the fight. Why? well I am not allowed to say because I would be repeating myself. But let's just say he did it more in this fight than any other fight to that point. There was even a video of his sparring session leading up to this fight (and not the famous knock-down one)...where you can see Tyson continually clinching.

In this fight, Tyson would punch and then jump in to clinch. Even a simple Jab from Tyson was often led by trying to clinch. What Douglas did in response was to prevent Tyson from getting his way. He wasn't allowing Tyson to dictate the terms/flow of the fight.

If Tyson threw a punch and moved in to clinch...Douglas made him pay. Look at the way Tyson positions himself, moves, and holds his arms after he throws a shot...it's to clinch...but Douglas is moving while throwing to prevent this. That's what was really beautiful about how Douglas fought Tyson on that night. Douglas used his athletic ability combined with the rest of his talent in order to not allow Tyson to do what he wanted. He didn't allow Tyson to rest which would happen in a clinch.

So for example: Tyson would throw his usual one punch and then try to get in and clinch...but Douglas would combo up and even move back and throw the combo as Tyson was coming in...and because Tyson's guard was no longer in a position of defense because he was now reaching for the clinch...Tyson paid every time.

Now if you want to use some examples where fighters would initiate the clinching as their tactic (and it was used to slow Tyson's attack and survive but it costs them their chance to win because there wasn't as much punching)...two fights would be that of the Bone Crusher Smith fight and Mitch Green.
If you clinch to much, you're not going to win. If you throw against Tyson, you open yourself up to being countered. What Douglas was able to do is a combination of everything.

So could you tie up Tyson? Yes. But he often allowed it. The one fight he was most disappointed in and didn't like the fight overall to the point of embarrassment when it was brought up, was the Bone Crusher Smith fight. Smith not only clinched up but refusing to open up pissed Tyson off. But Smith still lost a UD.

Quick note on that: At one point in another fight, Biggs fight, after Biggs had been knocked down and got back up...Biggs tried to clinch Tyson up while Tyson was on the attack...and Tyson refused to allow it and finished Biggs off. So I think he did have the capability to get out of the clinch if he chose to do it...but of course it was much easier to allow yourself to prevent the clinch when you have someone hurt because the fight is about to end right there so you can use up your energy to keep attacking.

Actually, that's a good fight to look at because of Tyrell Biggssize combined with how he fought. In that fight and I'm not sure who was not forcing the clinch of two arms so maybe Tyson was able to keep an arm free...but anyway...Tyson used elbows in that fight while in close.

Tyson talking about how intimidation works for him:



Note the quote: "I knew how to beat these guys psychologically, before I even got into the ring with them."

Yes, seen it before. So how did he intimidate his opponents exactly?
What made them have fear???

He looked at them with a stern face and/or mean?
He really didn't do that all the time...not even that often.
Ribalta was one of the few times he did it while with Rooney.
Other times he had a relaxed approached to it.

Ever see Tommy Hearns?
The Klitschko brothers are steal when it comes to facial expressions. Wlad looks like Ivan Drago in a stare-down.

Maybe his aura of energy?

What was he doing before he got into the ring with them that made them scared?

Now Tyson does say a bit more on the matter in the interview which I can post up...but I want to know from you.

"I don't try to intimidate anybody before a fight," Tyson said. "That's nonsense. I intimidate people by hitting them." should still be taken into consideration since they are his words.

And here is something more to back it up:

In the past Tyson did not usually try to intimidate his opponents in prefight press conferences. "What he did was," explains Lott, "he used to hit them pretty hard."

This whole article is good...with some good points by Eddie Futch:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vau...9899/index.htm

[Benny Leonard]

by quietone]In boxing, a bully is someone who relies on intimidation and tries to hurt his opponent very quickly. Fighters like Liston, Foreman and Tyson are commonly labeled as bullies.

Who you wanna label as bully is up to you. But go ahead and ask everyone else on this forum whether or not Tyson should've been labeled as a bully. I think you'll find the results in my favor.

How do they intimidate? What are they doing?

By "Hurting his opponent very quickly"...that's how?
Well, so did just about anyone that was able to.
Cus taught Tyson that if you can get a fight over quickly, do it; because anything can happen as the fight goes on. That's part of strategy if anything. You incorporate that into your style of fight.
Dempsey had the exact same way of doing things which most likely, Cus and Tyson got it from. He learned that it is better to get a fight over as quick as possible. And how do you do that? You hit the opponent hard and are aggressive. He learned that as a street-fighter prior to even picking up the gloves.


For someone on the smaller side, like Dempsey, like Tyson...if you had that ability...use it. Fighters tend to use every possible attribute that is at there disposal to win.

Being a bully doesn't mean you have to be bigger than everyone else. Tyson was more intimidating, carried more power and was arguably stronger than most of his opponents.

If you were the victim, who would you be more intimidated by?:

1) a taller guy, who had less of a punch and didn't rely on intimidation
2) a shorter guy, who had more of a punch and did rely on intimidation



Ali's fighting style was not one of a bullies, though. He's the one that would make his opponents come after him, while he was sort of trying to avoid them.

If you wanna call Ali sort of a verbal bully, then that's fine.. I guess.

It's Psychological warfare. Both Tyson and Ali used it. When Tyson was being trained out of Catskill with Rooney, Tyson wasn't about opening his mouth...while Ali opened his. Of course, as Tyson's skills eroded he relied on a new way of doing things. This is actually when he fit more of the "bully" character. I think it was Jerry Izenburg who brought that up. I don't want to mis-represent what he said but I also don't want to take his point and solely use it as my own. He wasn't a bully before he basically got with King...he became one when his skills eroded and he got away from his teachings. Tyson was able to rely on the mystique he built up from years of work he put in.

And now going back to one of my points: I still say "bully" should not be used in boxing. Tyson wasn't beating up some nerdy little kid who stood no chance while avoiding someone that did. Tyson was fighting in Pro Boxing against fighters that not only could defend themselves, but would. No matter what he did to knock them off their game mentally...they always had a chance to kick his ass...especially since they were Full Grown Men of large stature...more often than not...bigger than him with strength to back it all up.

Now a point for both Tyson and Ali was that they used their method(s) to enable them to get the upper-hand in the fight. If you can get that mental edge...yes...use it. That's war.
The key is to discourage the opponent and/or take him off his game. This happens in many different forms.



He is a quick thought

If you were the victim, who would you be more intimidated by?:

1) a taller guy, who had less of a punch and didn't rely on intimidation
2) a shorter guy, who had more of a punch and did rely on intimidation

So how is he "intimidating" me again?
What's he doing?

Staring me down?
So what...I laugh because a stare does nothing. He isn't hitting me yet.

I would be worried about the guy who had more ability than me and could kick my ass.

For me specifically; I'm worried about going up against a Prime Tyson (although not that it matters but play along)...because he is stronger than me; has incredible hand speed; throws in combination; is hard to hit and will make you pay when you try to hit him; when you do hit him, he takes your best shot; and overall...he is a Pro Fighters that is well trained/prepared to beat the living **** out of me.

With Ali: Same as Tyson.

Listen, I go to the Zoo and see the Gorillas. I go up to the glass they are behind and they stare me down. Sometimes they **** on their chest and roar with their teeth showing. I'm not scared. Why? Because so what...they are not attacking me...and they are behind glass.
Now take that glass away and let them come right after me...yes...piss and **** will be released from my body for those few seconds before I'm beaten to death. Why am I scared? because the Gorilla is attacking me and has every intent to kill me and I don't have the ability to fight them off.

Now what would boost my confidence? Being 35 feet back with a loaded rifle.