I dont get Harry Greb's boxing Record

[StarshipTrooper]

You guys take this one. I'm just not in the mood tonight to deal with the nitwit "we don't need no education" crowd.

Poet

[JAB5239]

Nothing in my posts says that WE SHOULD NOT ACCEPT GREB'S GREATNESS. Nothing. Im not denying greb's greatness, just how high he should be based on eyewitness accounts & a writer's opinion. This is the same problem i have with mayweather fans. I DONT deny his great skills, i deny his level of greatness he & his delusional fan base claim.

As for harry greb, old timers say dont discredit the old fighters, well you guys are doing the exact same thing by holding fighters up in such a high pedestal that you havent seen fight. You want to keep him up in a high ranking in favor of a fighter that there is visual evidence of. You want to without a shadow of a doubt say this guy is the greatest so & so & we dont have footage of it.

You say he fought once a week, was he fighting legendary great fighers once a week? I look at a lot of great old school fighters & i see them in their primes facing fighters with 15,20,30,35 losses.

Sometimes quality is greater than quantity.

Do you need to fight 200 times to prove you are a great fighter? Should we hold back a fighter in all time great rankings behind greb even though we have great visual evidence of the fighter? But because some writers wrote that greb is soooo awesome & the greatest we should go by that?

How many no decisions should have been losses? how many should have been wins? How many fights were judged incorrectly because the person deciding who the winner is was the referee?

How many times did fighters throw fights for the mob? How many times did the mob fix fights?

How many times did a black fighter get robbed so the white fighter can win? Why do i bring this up? Because in the so called golden age of boxing, black people did not get equal treatment IN LIFE. How much more in sports?

How many times were black fighters denied title shots?

Hell, jake lamotta even had to throw a fight just so he could a title shot vs cerdan. How much more a black fighter?

Personally, i dont think a fighter that has no film footage should be in the top ten. As time goes by, as fighters careers are more appreciated & thoroughly examined i think fighters that have no film footage should slowly move down in rankings in favor for fighters with actual footage. Look, im not denying they were great fighters, just where they rank.

How could you with a straight face say this boxer with no film footage should be ranked higher vs this boxer with ample footage & a great resume with only 50 fights?

When fighter A has beaten more fighters and better fighters than fighter B, fighter A has to rank higher. Why would I rank a fighter higher with video footage if I know another fighter has beaten the same caliber of fighters and more of them?

[JAB5239]

and how do we know he didnt fight like calzaghe?

Have you ever read the account of his first fight with Tunney?

[Bundana]

That's a very good question. On BoxRec, anyone of their editors, including myself, can put in a result, and anyone can change it if they want. Most, if not all of the editors on BoxRec have a good reputation, so they make sure they put in the right information.

On the Greb/Norfolk bout, Ring Record Book had Greb winning. The person that put it in for BoxRec was Luckett Davis, who is a Great researcher.

Actually the results in this bout has been changed several times. On October 28, 2004, Davis had Greb winning. On January 9, 2006 it was changed to a draw. On March 5, 2006, Mike Delisa, another Great researcher, changed it to a No-Decision. On January 26, 2007, Davis changed it back to a win for Greb.

On August 1, 2007, Delisa changed it to read: Pittsburg Post and Pittsburgh Times and AP gave out to Greb, Pittsburgh Gazzette-Times gave verdict to Norfolk.

On February 8, 2010, Davis changed it to read: Pittsburgh Post, Pittsburgh Times, and AP gave out to Greb, Pittsburgh Gazette-Times gave verdict to Norfolk.

In the Ring Record Book, the bout was listed as a No-Decision up to and including the 1985 RRB. In the 1986-87 RRB, which was the last Ring Record Book, they listed it as ND-W for Greb.

Thanks - that's exactly the kind of information, I was looking for.

Seems to me, that if the reports at the time were so conflicting, that it today is almost impossible to be certain, who really held the upper hand... then, surely, a draw would be the fairest result?

[Spartacus Sully]

Thanks - that's exactly the kind of information, I was looking for.

Seems to me, that if the reports at the time were so conflicting, that it today is almost impossible to be certain, who really held the upper hand... then, surely, a draw would be the fairest result?

seems to me that its 3 vs 1 Pittsburgh Post, Pittsburgh Times, and AP vs Pittsburgh Gazette-Times

if the majority agrees that greb won how would a draw be the fairest result?

[mickey malone]

and how do we know he didnt fight like calzaghe?

He did fight like Calzaghe, but harder, for longer, against a multiple choice of better and heavier fighters, with two stronger hands but only the one good eye..

Greb was a bit like Armstrong (who we do have footage of).. Nothing particularly noticable in the skillset, but what do you do with a fighter who just keeps coming forward, cascading leather from all directions, who you can't knock out?
You could also liken him to Marciano, but tougher.. He didn't hit as hard as the Rock, but he threw twice as many punches and didn't get cut or KD'd as often, this despite having 250 fights more.. I think if they'd met, Marciano would have probably won by the skin of his teeth, but only through being strong enough to force Greb backwards, he'd force Greb to cover up, but I doubt he would have KO'd him..
What would the premadonna's of today do with someone like that??.. I think I know the answer - Duck him!.. Pac probably wouldn't, but Greb would be a bridge too far at MW and just walk straight through him anyway..

[mickey malone]

Thanks - that's exactly the kind of information, I was looking for.

Seems to me, that if the reports at the time were so conflicting, that it today is almost impossible to be certain, who really held the upper hand... then, surely, a draw would be the fairest result?

I think it was close enough to be a SD either way or a draw..
Whatever way you look at it, Norfolk was a top HW and the fact that Greb held his own with him twice, gives us a great insight as to how good he was..

[Bundana]

seems to me that its 3 vs 1 Pittsburgh Post, Pittsburgh Times, and AP vs Pittsburgh Gazette-Times

if the majority agrees that greb won how would a draw be the fairest result?

Guess it all depends on which papers you read. At IBHOF they have obviously reached a different conclusion, since they have Norfolk winning this fight (see under Norfolk's profile)... and earlier in this thread (#28) hhascup himself states, that it's wrong to proclaim Greb the winner of this particular fight.

My point is, that if we, many years later, decide to change the results of these matches (fought under the assumption by all involved at the time, that no official verdict would be rendered in case of a distance fight), we should at least make certain, that we get it right... so no "L" suddenly appears on the record of someone, who doesn't deserve it. And if we can't do that, we should just leave it as it is (ND-D).

[Spartacus Sully]

Guess it all depends on which papers you read. At IBHOF they have obviously reached a different conclusion, since they have Norfolk winning this fight (see under Norfolk's profile)... and earlier in this thread (#28) hhascup himself states, that it's wrong to proclaim Greb the winner of this particular fight.

My point is, that if we, many years later, decide to change the results of these matches (fought under the assumption by all involved at the time, that no official verdict would be rendered in case of a distance fight), we should at least make certain, that we get it right... so no "L" suddenly appears on the record of someone, who doesn't deserve it. And if we can't do that, we should just leave it as it is (ND-D).

perhaps the people over at ibhof only read the Pittsburgh Gazette-Times?

if anything the most fair option would to label it as nd-w for greb while citing the papers that claim he won and claim he lost.

[STILL_DETOX]

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=370510