Manny Pacquiao vs Julio Cesar Chavez at 135lb

[#1Assassin]

chavez was the far greater fighter but pac would beat him do to their styles, pac does great against ppl who come right at him.

[them_apples]

Chavez at that weight was almost unbeatable. Chavez would had broken him down as he did to countles of others

at 135 it would be a war. Chavez' straight right would be getting Pacquiao all night, Pacquiaos left hand would be tagging Chavez all night as well.

On the ATG list though, Chavez had a better run than Manny at 135 clearly. A win for Chavez wouldn't be out of the question either, anything above that though Pacquiao hit's to hard and would probably stop Chavez badly since he had lack luster defense. (although his chin was superb, you just don't do that with a guy like Pacquiao).

At 135 for Pacquiao, to me he just looked like the 130 lb fighter he was, only cutting less weight. He had tons of speed and stamina, but his power hadn't adjusted as well (even though he did score a KO). I'm going to give the fight to Pacquiao based on his speed, he'd land more than Chavez and Chavez might look like a fish out of water at times. I don't see a stoppage though. 60/40 in Pacquiaos favor.

[them_apples]

Meldrick Taylor was incredibly fast and Chavez, while not as fast, was able to keep up with him just fine.

Because Manny hops up and down that gives him an edge in footwork? I'm trying to understand what you mean because I've never seen Manny as a fighter with footwork.

And at 135 I don't think Manny matches Chavez in power.

Don't forget, Manny got beat by Morales and schooled by JMM who neither were as good as Chavez.

And tbh since those guys he hasn't fought anybody. And no over rated Cotto and Hatton don't count as top contenders IMO. We won't know what Manny is capable of until he fights some real contenders, which we all know Arum isn't ready to do at this point - Manny is too valuable to him. As long as 800k people are willing to buy a ppv and attend a live arena to see him beat up bums like Joshua Clottey, he'll keep doing that. Once Manny is shot and he has other big stars, he'll throw Manny into a big fight and once he's KO'd he'll step over Manny's KO'd body to the winner, recruit him, and Manny will be old news and probably not fight anymore. He's a guy that once he loses a couple big fights, his draw power is gone.

Pacquiao was green when he lost to Morales, and IMO Morales was just straight up better than Chavez p4p. Pacquiao still looked like a child when he fought Morales.

I agree at 135, I think Pacquiao had a lull in his power and Chavez get's the edge here.

In terms of speed, yea Meldrick Taylor can flurry great, but Pacquiaos speed is a whole different kind of speed, he leaps in and out and hits you with power punches from weird angles. That was a pretty bleak out outlook you have when comparing speed.

If I recall, Meldrick Taylor was taxing Chavez' ass all night, that fight is usually considered a travesty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNnARIv_-88

He barely handled Taylors speed. Against Pernell it was even worse, Whitaker wasn't even as fast as Taylor but his southpaw Stance fked with Chavez.

[-Rab]

That fight would've been incredible.

[CarlosG815]

Pacquiao was green when he lost to Morales, and IMO Morales was just straight up better than Chavez p4p. Pacquiao still looked like a child when he fought Morales.

I agree at 135, I think Pacquiao had a lull in his power and Chavez get's the edge here.

In terms of speed, yea Meldrick Taylor can flurry great, but Pacquiaos speed is a whole different kind of speed, he leaps in and out and hits you with power punches from weird angles. That was a pretty bleak out outlook you have when comparing speed.

If I recall, Meldrick Taylor was taxing Chavez' ass all night, that fight is usually considered a travesty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNnARIv_-88

He barely handled Taylors speed. Against Pernell it was even worse, Whitaker wasn't even as fast as Taylor but his southpaw Stance fked with Chavez.

I will agree that Meldrick losing was a tragedy. He's one of my favorite fighters and I hate the fact that he lost that fight when he should have won. All I'm saying is that Taylor was insanely fast and Chavez held his own and came out with a win.

Don't give me the Pac was green argument. I'm tired of hearing it, take that **** to NSB where 30,000 Pinoy's will agree with you. He's fought weaker opposition for the past 4 years. Washed up Morales and Barrera don't count. He lost to JMM and beat Cotto, Diaz and Hatton, all of which, while very popular, are B fighters at best, with Diaz and Hatton being low B fighters.

When he fights the best and wins (uncontroversially) we can start comparing him to an ATG like Chavez. Beating up Josh Clottey didn't convince me that he's any better than he was when JMM schooled him.

[Wukillabeez78]

Watch any of his fights. He's a well known hopper. Shawn Porter is a guy who you can tell tries to emulate Manny and one of the bad habits he's picked up is excessive hopping, and I think he gets that from sparring and training around Manny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5cxoI9vmDM

fast forward to around 1 minute when he gets on the mitts. He is a nonstop hopper. Watch film on Oscar, JMM, Barrera, etc. none of which were hoppers. I think this makes Manny somewhat predictable and when he fought Marquez he capitalized on it, catching Manny on the downward end of his hop and sent him off balance and had he followed up with a combo would have knocked him down.

Dude, I'm not sure if you've ever boxed but the "hopping" you're referring to is Pacquiao bouncing on his toes like many boxers do. De La Hoya did it against Vargas and countless other boxers also do it to get into rhythm. Not everyone does it because not everyone has that style. You typically only see fighters who constantly move in and out employ this technique. You move much quicker bouncing on your toes than you do flat-footed. Jumping rope is not only good for building stamina but is also great for people who stay on their toes for most of a fight like Pacquiao does.

[Wukillabeez78]

Nice video but it only illustrates him bouncing on his toes, not "hopping". Pacquiao isn't even the first fighter I tend to think about who bounces on their toes like this. Ali did this all the time and Bruce Lee also bounced on his toes. Pacquiao has good footwork (not great, like I said Pernell Whitaker, Mayweather and boxers like that come to mind when you think great footwork) and it is definitely superior to Chavez who was pretty much a flat footed plodder that primarily relied on his counterpunching to get the job done.

I still think Chavez would win at 135 lbs though.

[CarlosG815]

Dude, I'm not sure if you've ever boxed but the "hopping" you're referring to is Pacquiao bouncing on his toes like many boxers do. De La Hoya did it against Vargas and countless other boxers also do it to get into rhythm. Not everyone does it because not everyone has that style. You typically only see fighters who constantly move in and out employ this technique. You move much quicker bouncing on your toes than you do flat-footed. Jumping rope is not only good for building stamina but is also great for people who stay on their toes for most of a fight like Pacquiao does.

I know what it is and I have boxed.

Which De La Hoya vs Vargas fight did you watch? It wasn't the same one I saw, maybe you're thinking of another fight with two totally different people in it.

I like what Teddy Atlas said about it. "It's real cute in the amateurs, but when you step into the professional ranks you need to cut it down, or you're gonna get timed, and a good fighter will pick up on it and you're going to get tagged."

Manny is good enough to get away with it but not as many fighters hop like you're trying to make it sound.

Pacquiao and Hatton are the only guys that come to mind at the moment.

[Wukillabeez78]

I know what it is and I have boxed.

Which De La Hoya vs Vargas fight did you watch? It wasn't the same one I saw, maybe you're thinking of another fight with two totally different people in it.

I like what Teddy Atlas said about it. "It's real cute in the amateurs, but when you step into the professional ranks you need to cut it down, or you're gonna get timed, and a good fighter will pick up on it and you're going to get tagged."

Manny is good enough to get away with it but not as many fighters hop like you're trying to make it sound.

Pacquiao and Hatton are the only guys that come to mind at the moment.

Maybe you should go back and not only watch De La Hoya/Vargas but also some of De La Hoya's other fights. He bounced on his toes all the time!!! Teddy Atlas never trained a fighter who employed that style of fighting. Michael Moorer was a slow, plodding fighter and the young Tyson he trained was more of a side to side bob and weave fighter who only came forward instead of moving in and out. MANY fighters employ this same technique. Pacquiao isn't the first to fight this way and isn't the best or most well-known fighter to utilize it. I (and I'm sure others as well) could name plenty of fighters who bounce on their toes like Manny but I've already named two of the most recognizable names, ALI and BRUCE LEE.

[CarlosG815]

Maybe you should go back and not only watch De La Hoya/Vargas but also some of De La Hoya's other fights. He bounced on his toes all the time!!! Teddy Atlas never trained a fighter who employed that style of fighting. Michael Moorer was a slow, plodding fighter and the young Tyson he trained was more of a side to side bob and weave fighter who only came forward instead of moving in and out. MANY fighters employ this same technique. Pacquiao isn't the first to fight this way and isn't the best or most well-known fighter to utilize it. I (and I'm sure others as well) could name plenty of fighters who bounce on their toes like Manny but I've already named two of the most recognizable names, ALI and BRUCE LEE.

Show me film with De La Hoya hopping vs Vargas.

I have 6 links on youtube showing the entire fight and it's not there.

Again, are you sure you're not thinking of another fight with 2 other people in it?