Deflating the Ali Legend

[geribeetus]

as much as i love the man, i've always thought that some of his better wins get overrated.

[StarshipTrooper]

I KNEW the ******s on both sides of this would crawl out of the woodwork as soon as they saw this thread

Poet

[DeepSleep]

Ali wasn't **** but a heavyweight with footwork.

I don't give a damn who he faught. In that day and age, no one knew how to fight a heavyweight who faught like a lightweight. Back then, heavyweights were expected to stand flatfooted and duke it out. Ali ran around the ring throwing jabs and maybe a right cross here and there.

Not to mention Frazier was fucking robbed in their last showdown. The ended the fight because of his mouth bleeding. What kind of **** is that? Frazier was still ready to go. Ali on the otherside of the ring was telling his coach that he wasn't going to fight PERIOD. Then passed out right after the bell rung. Gtfoh, if you don't think that was highway robbery, grand theft auto, and assault with a deadly weapon all in one crime.

Ali faught great guys but all of them were one dimensional. Now-a-days, that **** don't work. Vitali would beat his ass, Holyfield in the 90s would beat his ass, Tyson on a good day would beat his ass, Lennox would beat his ass, hell Donovan Ruddock would probably whoop his ass too.

jab-jab-jab-jab-right cross.... is fucking amateur. He never went to the body. His hands were always down at his sides.

Best of that era... I agree.

Best of all time.... HELL no.

To be honest Flicker I'll give you that Lewis would trouble Ali, but Vitali? Vitali couldn't handle a guy who stood right in front of him and could match him jab for jab such as Lewis. Ali has the reach to jab with Vitali and the footwork to exploit the plodding Vitali and the hand speed to really give him big problems. You are underestimating Ali's foot speed and hand speed at his prime. Even if Ali was just a Heavyweight with great footwork his ability to punch without ever having to set his feet is a trait that alone lets him beat slower guys. Vitali is a good fighter no doubt but he is way too slow too handle Ali.

When you have a 81" reach and can punch with force without having to set your feet why should Ali throw anything but 1-2's? Tyson and Holyfield would have to beat Ali in a similar fashion to how Frazier beat him, by swarming but considering that Frazier barely beat a old Ali, I can't imagine either Holyfield or Tyson beating Ali.

Both Tyson and Holyfield would get shredded in similar fashions. Chasing Ali all over the ring while they got tagged over and over again. The post prime Ali who fought in 70's would have to work to win against these guys but the 60's Ali would cruise against either. Tyson wouldn't even make it to the ring, Ali would have him beat before the fight even started by expoliting his lack of composure.

Razor Ruddock beat Ali? Please explain as I can't think of logical reason behind that statement.

[StarshipTrooper]

To be honest Flicker I'll give you that Lewis would trouble Ali, but Vitali? Vitali couldn't handle a guy who stood right in front of him and could match him jab for jab such as Lewis. Ali has the reach to jab with Vitali and the footwork to exploit the plodding Vitali and the hand speed to really give him big problems. You are underestimating Ali's foot speed and hand speed at his prime. Even if Ali was just a Heavyweight with great footwork his ability to punch without ever having to set his feet is a trait that alone lets him beat slower guys. Vitali is a good fighter no doubt but he

When you have a 81" reach and can punch with force without having to set your feet why should Ali throw anything but 1-2's? Tyson and Holyfield would have to beat Ali in a similar fashion to how Frazier beat him, by swarming but considering that Frazier barely beat a old Ali, I can't imagine either Holyfield or Tyson beating Ali.

Both Tyson and Holyfield would get shredded in similar fashions. Chasing Ali all over the ring while they got tagged over and over again. The post prime Ali who fought in 70's would have to work to win against these guys but the 60's Ali would cruise against either. Tyson wouldn't even make it to the ring, Ali would have him beat before the fight even started by expoliting his lack of composure.

Razor Ruddock beat Ali? Please explain as I can't think of logical reason behind that statement.

F L I C K E R is under the delusion that nobody knew how to fight prior to 1990.

Poet

[Schmerzen]

lennox never KOd any1 with a good chin, "beat his ass" sounds a bit too bold to me

[JAB5239]

frazier did "****" by telling his corner to stop the fight,hence the corner retirement.He could no longer take the savage beating he was receiving from his feather fisted superior.

Stop lying. Frazier never told his corner to stop the fight, Futch took that upon himself.

[sonnyboyx2]

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.

not a single piece of this has any substance to it, these are all hyperthetical excuses based on nothing other than hatred and Foremans book which i read a few years back and came to the conclusion after less than 2 chapters that it was a load of bull ****e...i gave the book to a close friend to read and he also said it was nothing but a load of bull...By George!

1/. ducking the big names as a rising star.. you must be joking..Besmanoff, Daniels, Banks, Moore, Jones, Cooper.

2/. If you believe that rubbish about a "Cut Glove" against Cooper then you also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden...yes his glove was ripped but Ali never got a single second longer than the one minute between rounds.

3/. Doug Jones decision was a clear victory for Ali 8-2, 5-4, 5-4

4/., Liston was in tremendous physical shape for his fight with Ali.. Ali put on a `masterful display`good enough to beat any champion in history.

5/. Wether Liston took a dive or not, it was not Ali`s fault

6/. Fighting foreigners : Take a look at the record of Lennox Lewis and count the foreigners he fought compaired to Ali, Lewis fought the foreigners in the USA wheras Ali travelled to their country and beat them.

7/. The draft controversy made Ali revilled by everyone except his own mother, it was not unto years later that public opinion changed in his favour.

8/. Ali vs Frazier (1) Fight of the Century... so what if Frazier`s win would be more clear today?

9/. clinching & covering up?... take a look at Lewis, Ruiz, Klitschko bros...

10/. Muhammad Ali told the entire world that Foreman was not the indestructable monster he makes out to be, Ali won every minute of the Rumble in the Jungle`... it was a masterclass.. He beat Foreman so convincingly that Foreman never deserved a rematch with Ali in a million years.. Foreman is envious of Ali and a big bull ****er.

11/. Ali vs Norton... lost 1st fight won next 2 fights, to claim otherwise is ******ity.

12/. Ron Lyle was out on his feet after taking over 30 unanswered punches, that fight was "Correctly" stopped by the referee.

13/. Frazier in Manilla would have beaten any fighter in history.. smokin joe`put on a brutal display of power-punching aswell as showing unbelievable will and courage.

14/. Jimmy Young deliberately held his head outside the ropes the whole fight... Ali won by a country mile

15/. Shavers... beaten clearly by an old Muhammad Ali, coulda, woulda & shoulda dont count in this game.

16/. Leon Spinks... you obviously know very little about the sport of boxing, Leon Spinks was a brilliant Olympic champion & outstanding amateur fighter, his fight against Ali to win the title was voted Ring Magazine Fight of the Year... so he was not as bad as you are trying to make him out to be, Spinks fights are very sought after by fight-film collectors are they are great value-for-money action packed fights.

17/. Larry Holmes... Ali was suffering badly for the dibilitating desease Parkinsons syndrome and film footage available from his training camp for this fight clearly shows that he was in no condition to be granted a boxing license... Ali never ducked Holmes or anyone else.

"FINAL WORD"... You are the biggest clown i have yet came across on this or any other boxing forum, your knowledge of this great sport is virtually zero, you have read a book that your mother bought you for xmas and decided to make up the biggest load of lies and untruths every put into print about the greatest fighter the sport has ever known... i only hope that some guy punches your ***in teeth out the next time you go to your local boozer.

[Clyde Barrow]

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.

red k given

[Rolling Stone]

not a single piece of this has any substance to it, these are all hyperthetical excuses based on nothing other than hatred and Foremans book which i read a few years back and came to the conclusion after less than 2 chapters that it was a load of bull ****e...i gave the book to a close friend to read and he also said it was nothing but a load of bull...By George!

1/. ducking the big names as a rising star.. you must be joking..Besmanoff, Daniels, Banks, Moore, Jones, Cooper.

2/. If you believe that rubbish about a "Cut Glove" against Cooper then you also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden...yes his glove was ripped but Ali never got a single second longer than the one minute between rounds.

3/. Doug Jones decision was a clear victory for Ali 8-2, 5-4, 5-4

4/., Liston was in tremendous physical shape for his fight with Ali.. Ali put on a `masterful display`good enough to beat any champion in history.

5/. Wether Liston took a dive or not, it was not Ali`s fault

6/. Fighting foreigners : Take a look at the record of Lennox Lewis and count the foreigners he fought compaired to Ali, Lewis fought the foreigners in the USA wheras Ali travelled to their country and beat them.

7/. The draft controversy made Ali revilled by everyone except his own mother, it was not unto years later that public opinion changed in his favour.

8/. Ali vs Frazier (1) Fight of the Century... so what if Frazier`s win would be more clear today?

9/. clinching & covering up?... take a look at Lewis, Ruiz, Klitschko bros...

10/. Muhammad Ali told the entire world that Foreman was not the indestructable monster he makes out to be, Ali won every minute of the Rumble in the Jungle`... it was a masterclass.. He beat Foreman so convincingly that Foreman never deserved a rematch with Ali in a million years.. Foreman is envious of Ali and a big bull ****er.

11/. Ali vs Norton... lost 1st fight won next 2 fights, to claim otherwise is ******ity.

12/. Ron Lyle was out on his feet after taking over 30 unanswered punches, that fight was "Correctly" stopped by the referee.

13/. Frazier in Manilla would have beaten any fighter in history.. smokin joe`put on a brutal display of power-punching aswell as showing unbelievable will and courage.

14/. Jimmy Young deliberately held his head outside the ropes the whole fight... Ali won by a country mile

15/. Shavers... beaten clearly by an old Muhammad Ali, coulda, woulda & shoulda dont count in this game.

16/. Leon Spinks... you obviously know very little about the sport of boxing, Leon Spinks was a brilliant Olympic champion & outstanding amateur fighter, his fight against Ali to win the title was voted Ring Magazine Fight of the Year... so he was not as bad as you are trying to make him out to be, Spinks fights are very sought after by fight-film collectors are they are great value-for-money action packed fights.

17/. Larry Holmes... Ali was suffering badly for the dibilitating desease Parkinsons syndrome and film footage available from his training camp for this fight clearly shows that he was in no condition to be granted a boxing license... Ali never ducked Holmes or anyone else.

"FINAL WORD"... You are the biggest clown i have yet came across on this or any other boxing forum, your knowledge of this great sport is virtually zero, you have read a book that your mother bought you for xmas and decided to make up the biggest load of lies and untruths every put into print about the greatest fighter the sport has ever known... i only hope that some guy punches your ***in teeth out the next time you go to your local boozer.

This is the greatest post i have ever read on this site.......the TS should be shot in the ****ing head and have his balls chopped off for posting that absolute ****ing dribble....how dare you post this demeaning **** about the Greatest Athlete in Human History....go **** yourself you ****ing ****

[Schmerzen]

red k given

u dont need to waste red k to a fake account of an idiot