Deflating the Ali Legend

[General Zod]

Im not the biggest Ali fan in the world, but this is a seriously biased post. You made no attempt to be objective whats so ever, as for Foremans tainted drink, lol

[Sugar Ram]

I know a thread like this is sure to provoke strong opinions, but let's keep it free of flames. All opinions welcome, no personal attacks please. Who was the all-time greatest is always a matter of opinion. This is just for fun.

Ali was a Champ, nobody denies that. A darn good fighter, no doubt. Fierce competitor, entertaining, you bet. He fought them all, mostly. But the Greatest?? Not likely.

Reasons why Muhammad Ali has such an inflated reputation:

1) Masterful use of publicity. Outside the ring, Ali and his handlers knew how to stir up controversy and "ballyhoo" as George Foreman calls it in his autobiography. (Foreman learned how to use this to make a successful comeback at age 45). Read Foreman's autobiography - a must.

2) Expanding the fan base of boxing - Ali got large numbers of people who were not big boxing fans to take an interest. One reason why the average Joe who knows squat about boxing is quick to say Ali was the greatest.

3) Follow the money - #1 and #2 also got Ali lots of support inside the boxing world, because he brought in so many new $$$$$BUCKS$$$$. Money talks, and so did Ali. He made lots of money for himself and other people. This encouraged more athletes to enter the sport and contributed to the "golden age" in the 1970's.

4) Dirty business - boxing has ALWAYS been a dirty business, as much show biz as a sport. The best guy isn't always champ. Fixing fights is not so common because it's easy to get caught. So matchups are made carefully to protect the guy who can make the most money for the promoters. It's dirty, but that's pro boxing. It's also why won-lost records don't mean too much. Quality of opponents is more important.

The flaws in Ali's record that don't get much play outside the hard-core boxing world:

1) Ducking the big names as a rising fighter - his managers wisely kept him away from Machen. And didn't fight Cleveland Williams or Folley until they were well past their prime.

2) If not for his handlers ripping his glove after getting decked by Henry Cooper, Ali could well have lost by KO to a 2nd tier contender.

3) Doug Jones decision - could have gone either way. No disgrace here, this happens all the time. By Jones too was not a top contender.

4) Liston's self-distructed after winning the title. Not unlike Tyson, he lacked the discipline to last as a champ. By 1964 he was at his worst, just waiting to be had by the next contender. Liston fought less than one full round in almost 2 years, 1962-64.

5) Whether the Liston fights were fixed or not - who can say - Liston was inept in both. The phantom punch in fight 2 will be debated forever. Look at Liston go down, he spreads his arms out to catch himself. Someone who is really KO'd cannot do that.

6) Fighting foreigners with good records and fancy titles, but not even as good as journeymen in the USA.

7) The draft controversy won Ali the hearts of the left-wing media around the world. This got him good press to this day. No boxing required.

8) Comeback years: This may have been Ali at his best. Impressive wins over Quarry and Bonavena. Frazier-Ali 1 is an all-time classic to be sure. But Frazier's win would be by wider margin under points scoring of today. Frazier would get 2 points in rounds 11 and 15. All Ali's rounds were close.

9) So much clinching and covering up - this was a big feature of his comeback years. If he wasn't such a big name he would have gotten warnings or points deducted for refusing to fight.

10) Rumble in the Jungle - Read Foreman's book about the ****ed drink. It sounds legit to me. Remember who was the promoter: Don King. 'nuff said, I value my life. Ali never gave a rematch. All his other big money fights got a rematch. Surprise?

11) Ken Norton - watch the many re-runs of first Norton fight, Norton beats him up good in second half. But one judge still gave the fight to Ali! Ali never really beat Norton, fights 2 and 3 could have gone either way, but the BIG NAME won out.

12) Ron Lyle - Ali was losing the fight and benefits from a quick stoppage. Lyle was not knocked down or even close to it. Notice his immediate reaction to the stoppage - he was not groggy.

13) Manilla - Another entertaining match, but Frazier was a washed-up shell by now. Ali legend is built on wins like this.

14) Jimmy Young - Ali won this fight? He barely landed a punch!

15) Earnie Shavers - yes, Ali beat Shavers, who lasted less than one round with Quarry. But if Shavers had not been in awe of "the greatest", he wouldn't have been faked out in round 2, and could have been champ.

16) Leon Spinks - granted Ali was washed up at this point. But Spinks was probably the all-time worst guy to ever win a title fight. Lifetime record: 26 wins, 17 losses, 4 draws. Wow.

17) Larry Holmes, 1980 - The Ali fanbase in the media likes to say Ali was acripple by this time. Maybe and maybe not. But Ali could never handle a fighter who beat him with the left jab. Too bad he ducked Holmes in 1977-78.

There's even more to say, but this is enuf for now. Fire away if you want, but keep it above the belt.

**** UR FACE U ****ING ****ER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!U DONT KNOW **** ABOUT BOXING!!!U****ING PIECE OF ****!!!LARRY HOLMES COULD NEVER BEAT ALI AT ANY TIME...AND ALL UR POSTS ARE BUll****!U ****ING ****ER **** UR FACE U ****ING ****ER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[EzzardFan]

anybodies competition can be broken down that way.

Not anyones. There were plenty of champs in the 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s who never ducked anyone.

[rskumm21]

Fair enough. But you're really stretching it on some of those, and most are just opinions, not really proven facts. The thing is even if you were to compare that list at face value against a list of Ali's true proven accomplishments, it wouldn't even compare. Ali is top 5 ATG.

[1SILVA]

not a single piece of this has any substance to it, these are all hyperthetical excuses based on nothing other than hatred and Foremans book which i read a few years back and came to the conclusion after less than 2 chapters that it was a load of bull ****e...i gave the book to a close friend to read and he also said it was nothing but a load of bull...By George!

1/. ducking the big names as a rising star.. you must be joking..Besmanoff, Daniels, Banks, Moore, Jones, Cooper.

2/. If you believe that rubbish about a "Cut Glove" against Cooper then you also believe in fairies at the bottom of the garden...yes his glove was ripped but Ali never got a single second longer than the one minute between rounds.

3/. Doug Jones decision was a clear victory for Ali 8-2, 5-4, 5-4

4/., Liston was in tremendous physical shape for his fight with Ali.. Ali put on a `masterful display`good enough to beat any champion in history.

5/. Wether Liston took a dive or not, it was not Ali`s fault

6/. Fighting foreigners : Take a look at the record of Lennox Lewis and count the foreigners he fought compaired to Ali, Lewis fought the foreigners in the USA wheras Ali travelled to their country and beat them.

7/. The draft controversy made Ali revilled by everyone except his own mother, it was not unto years later that public opinion changed in his favour.

8/. Ali vs Frazier (1) Fight of the Century... so what if Frazier`s win would be more clear today?

9/. clinching & covering up?... take a look at Lewis, Ruiz, Klitschko bros...

10/. Muhammad Ali told the entire world that Foreman was not the indestructable monster he makes out to be, Ali won every minute of the Rumble in the Jungle`... it was a masterclass.. He beat Foreman so convincingly that Foreman never deserved a rematch with Ali in a million years.. Foreman is envious of Ali and a big bull ****er.

11/. Ali vs Norton... lost 1st fight won next 2 fights, to claim otherwise is ******ity.

12/. Ron Lyle was out on his feet after taking over 30 unanswered punches, that fight was "Correctly" stopped by the referee.

13/. Frazier in Manilla would have beaten any fighter in history.. smokin joe`put on a brutal display of power-punching aswell as showing unbelievable will and courage.

14/. Jimmy Young deliberately held his head outside the ropes the whole fight... Ali won by a country mile

15/. Shavers... beaten clearly by an old Muhammad Ali, coulda, woulda & shoulda dont count in this game.

16/. Leon Spinks... you obviously know very little about the sport of boxing, Leon Spinks was a brilliant Olympic champion & outstanding amateur fighter, his fight against Ali to win the title was voted Ring Magazine Fight of the Year... so he was not as bad as you are trying to make him out to be, Spinks fights are very sought after by fight-film collectors are they are great value-for-money action packed fights.

17/. Larry Holmes... Ali was suffering badly for the dibilitating desease Parkinsons syndrome and film footage available from his training camp for this fight clearly shows that he was in no condition to be granted a boxing license... Ali never ducked Holmes or anyone else.

"FINAL WORD"... You are the biggest clown i have yet came across on this or any other boxing forum, your knowledge of this great sport is virtually zero, you have read a book that your mother bought you for xmas and decided to make up the biggest load of lies and untruths every put into print about the greatest fighter the sport has ever known... i only hope that some guy punches your ***in teeth out the next time you go to your local boozer.

AMEN!!!!!!! Good work, Sonny

[rskumm21]

You have pretty much eliminated Ali as a fighter from having anything to do with his reputation. His resume as a HW is second to none imo and compares favourably to pretty much any p4p atg. Whilst he wasn't without a weakness he had one hell of a skill set. Put that with the fact of his longevity and the fact that we probably still never saw the best of him and you have a fighter with a richly deserved reputation. For me SRR was the greatest but I have yet to see a HW who I could confidently say would beat a prime Ali



Hardly a flaw, it would be a ****** fighter who didn't take the path of least resistance to a title shot. Also there are always fighters missing of a fighters resume due to time lines etc but it is a real reach to find too many on Ali's resume


Bit of an exagerated urban myth has gone on about this fight and the length of delay. The fact of it was the ropes cushioned Ali's fall and he got up from every hard punch he ever took so it is conjecture to say that Cooper's would have done for him.
Don't forget he finished Copper in the next round so wasn't showing too many ill effects.

Ali won this comfortably, Jones gave a good account by Ali won. Jones was coming off a win against Folley, so you can't have it both ways was Folley a contender or not?


This is hindsight. Coming into the first Liston fight I and pretty much everyone else thought Ali/Clay would be KO'd within 4 rounds.

I've never been comfortable with the KO but I don't think Liston took a dive for money. What went through his mind we can only speculate. That said I think that Ali had Liston's measure and maybe Liston realised that.

Wouldn't be the first fighter to take the odd easy match. If they paid more than a journeyman would then why not? He was after all the WORLD champion.

Maybe to the man in the street, personally I don't think it effected his stature as a boxer to boxing fans one way or other, certainly not to me. If anything it robbed us of his peak, can you think who would have beaten him in that era? He might well have disposed of a rushed green Frazier easily and we would have been robbed of 2 great fights, who can say?

I had this for Frazier, I know there is a school of thought that Ali one but not to my eyes.

It's called ringcraft, any great fighter does what he can get away with. Marciano, Armstrong, Duran etc etc

Foreman changes with the wind on this. In facing Ali he says the drugged drink was an excuse he pulled out of the air.

I gave the 3rd to Norton and have seen worse decisions than giving Norton the 2nd fight too. That said Ali wouldn't be the first champion or big name to be given the benefit of the doubt. Norton was Ali's bogeyman, doesn't make him a better fighter or diminish Ali imo.


Ali was losing the fight but whilst Lyle wasn't knocked down he has in trouble. He took countless punches without replying for 30 seconds, maybe the referee did stop it a touch early but rather too early than too late.
To my eyes Lyle was done, yes he argued the stoppage as he passively follwed Ali to Ali's corner, dazed.

Frazier was in decline as was Ali, great fight and the last hurrah of 2 atg's

This is one of those fights that Young wins more rounds by the year. I would have given the nod to Young but it was by no means a shut out.

Yes Ali faked Shavers out and had Shavers gone all or nothing who knows? That said no one ever KO'd Ali so it is speculation that Shavers would have. Had Shavers gone more hell for leather in the eraly rounds you could easily say his suspect stamina might have let him down in the later rounds.

I wouldn't argue with either point, Ali was a shell and Spinks was extremely limited. I personally draw the line under Ali with the Shavers fight.

Ali was finished, this fight does neither him or Holmes any credit.
I would grant you that by 1977 Holmes could have beaten Ali but I wouldn't neccessary say that Ali ducked Holmes. Its the old risk versus reward Ali would fight Godzilla if the money was right. If there is no more money in the pot he'd rather fight a Spinks or a Evangelista, thats the game.
Also lets not forget they were both top 10 ranked.

Great, great post!

[rskumm21]

**** UR FACE U ****ING ****ER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!U DONT KNOW **** ABOUT BOXING!!!U****ING PIECE OF ****!!!LARRY HOLMES COULD NEVER BEAT ALI AT ANY TIME...AND ALL UR POSTS ARE BUll****!U ****ING ****ER **** UR FACE U ****ING ****ER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's OK, take a deep breath.

[Bright-Eyes]

I take that in his old age,LondonRingRules has forgotten the password to his original account.

[StarshipTrooper]

I take that in his old age,LondonRingRules has forgotten the password to his original account.

Hahaha! That's pretty good Green K given

Poet

[GJC]

"FINAL WORD"... You are the biggest clown i have yet came across on this or any other boxing forum, your knowledge of this great sport is virtually zero, you have read a book that your mother bought you for xmas and decided to make up the biggest load of lies and untruths every put into print about the greatest fighter the sport has ever known... i only hope that some guy punches your ***in teeth out the next time you go to your local boozer.

Sonny I hate it when you get vague, do you agree with the thread starter or not?