Top 10 heavyweights from diffirent era's

[mickey malone]

i said we are miles off the topic because i am the only one posting on your thread... i said i would not have David Tua as one of the top 10 fighters of the 90s... so now you are claiming i am "Bashing Lennox Lewis" by saying i dont rate Tua.... its the same old line, David Tua is Lennox Lewis claim to fame, take away his win over Tua and what is left... nothing!... and visa-versa.
i dont even want to go into it and educate you on it because i will be ****ing my head against a wall when i claim Butler, Grant, Botha, Fortune, Akinwande, Jackson, Mavrovic was all Class C fighters who never deserved a World Title fight... as you have already told me that fighters like "Izon, Sullivan, Daniels, Maskaev, Nicholson & Oquendo" are all World Class B+ fighters.......
yet you claim Trevor Berbick had only one good victory in his career when he beat Pink Thomas, arnt you forgetting Berbicks wins over John Tate, Muhammad Ali, Mitch Green, David Bey, Iran Barkley, Greg Page & Gordy Racette, he was still good enough in his mid-40s to fight Hasim Rahman to a decision....

IMO the Klitschko`s have never fought Tua because Tua has never been in a position to challenge them, i have also claimed many times that Hasim Rahman is the worst undisputed champion in history which puts into perspective David Tua who fought him to a draw and a disputed stoppage win when miles behind on the scorecards..John Ruiz easily took care of Rahman winning every round... Tua never ever wanted a return with John Ruiz.

as for my lists... they are almost the same as yours with the exception of the fighters i *****ied on your lists, and i have gave my views on why i *****ied them.. but you are twisting it around to insinuate that i am bashing Lennox Lewis when i call into question David Tua, which is quite ridiculous, i have given you my reasons for questioning Tua but you have not given me your theory of how that equates to Lewis bashing?

No, don't you mean that I'm the only one who has posted all ten lists on Yaman's thread?..
You did bash LL, by saying that he wasn't even top 5 during the 90's, which is absurd!
Tua isn't Lewis's claim to fame.. He had far more significant fights aginst Bruno, Ruddock, Holyfield, Morrison & Klitschko.. Lewis Tua didn't make for a good contest, for the shear fact that Lewis was worried about Tua's left hand, & therefore, boxed far more cautiously than in any of his other fights..

Thomas was Berbick's most impressive win, and he did well against Page too, but the others arn't anything to shout about, and how you can credit his win against Ali is totally beyond my comprehension.. The poor man should have been in hospital as opposed to a boxing ring..

Up until about 2 years ago, when Tua became less active, he was always in a position to challenge the Klits, the reasons being, that he's always maintained a good momentum by regularly knocking out other contenders while keeping his loses to a minimum..
The Klits, Valuev, Ruiz, Toney and Holyfield, all avoided Tua like the dentist..
Not long ago, someone posted some video evidence of him spanking Holyfield in sparring.. At one stage, he caught Evander with a stunning tripple left hook, which wobbled him all over the place..

I'm not twisting anything, we just disagree with regard to the abilities of a few fighters, and on a positive note, it's good to know that you agree with most of my listings, but as for Tua not wanting to fight Ruiz, i'm sorry mate, but that's godda be bollocks..

[sonnyboyx2]

No, don't you mean that I'm the only one who has posted all ten lists on Yaman's thread?..
You did bash LL, by saying that he wasn't even top 5 during the 90's, which is absurd!
Tua isn't Lewis's claim to fame.. He had far more significant fights aginst Bruno, Ruddock, Holyfield, Morrison & Klitschko.. Lewis Tua didn't make for a good contest, for the shear fact that Lewis was worried about Tua's left hand, & therefore, boxed far more cautiously than in any of his other fights..

Thomas was Berbick's most impressive win, and he did well against Page too, but the others arn't anything to shout about, and how you can credit his win against Ali is totally beyond my comprehension.. The poor man should have been in hospital as opposed to a boxing ring..

Up until about 2 years ago, when Tua became less active, he was always in a position to challenge the Klits, the reasons being, that he's always maintained a good momentum by regularly knocking out other contenders while keeping his loses to a minimum..
The Klits, Valuev, Ruiz, Toney and Holyfield, all avoided Tua like the dentist..
Not long ago, someone posted some video evidence of him spanking Holyfield in sparring.. At one stage, he caught Evander with a stunning tripple left hook, which wobbled him all over the place..

I'm not twisting anything, we just disagree with regard to the abilities of a few fighters, and on a positive note, it's good to know that you agree with most of my listings, but as for Tua not wanting to fight Ruiz, i'm sorry mate, but that's godda be bollocks..

when Lewis fought Ruddock, `Razor was Damaged-Goods`when he fought Morrison, Tommy had just been hammered in 1rd by Michael Bent and was suffering HIV, Holyfield was years past his best, Bruno had suffered 3 brutal knock outs being left unconsious in 2 of them, IMO Lewis was very fortunate to be awarded the victory over Klitschko as i am of the opinion Vitali was cut by a deliberate headbutt and if the fight had gone to scorecards Vitali was a clear winner... You are entitled to your opinion of those fights and i am entitled to mine... i am not discrediting Lewis, what i am saying is that IMO Lennox Lewis never fought any fighters who was at the top of their game.. They had all been exposed previously, now i know you are of the impression Bowe ducked Lewis and i accept your choice of opinion, yet i am of the opposite in that Lewis ducked Bowe..

Berbicks victories over former champion Big John Tate and the very good David Bey are excellent wins... Tate was a very good fighter before "booze" got to him, while Bey is the unluckiest fighter in history not to be Heavyweight Champion.. so i cannot see how you can dismiss those wins as "nothing to shout about"...

you have agreed that Michael Moorer was old and past it when he got bombed out by Tua which only leaves Tua with the 19 second victory over John Ruiz.. unless you want to elaberate on some of his other wins that was against these "contenders he regular KOd".That you claim.... i also could never see any fighter avoiding David Tua, especialy The Klits, Holyfield or Toney... and like i pointed out earlier David Tua has never been in a position to challenge any of those fighters, he is not ranked by any organisation in their Top 20 and fell out of the ratings shortly after the Lewis defeat... i sugest you go watch David Tua vs Chris Byrd and you will see the difference between a class A boxer and a class C boxer... but if you think he deserves to be in your Top 10 Heavyweights of the 90s that is your perogative.

Tua sparring with Holyfield is imaterial.... when i brought up the Lewis vs Ruiz sparring story i was "shot down in flames" and told it never happened and that i musta mis-read what i read...

[GJC]

Sonny who do you have above Lewis in the 90's?
I remember you saying you had him rated 12 or14 all time, forgive me if I have misquoted you.
So if you have someone at 14 I would imagine that he must be at least top 5 in his era, surely?

[sonnyboyx2]

Sonny who do you have above Lewis in the 90's?
I remember you saying you had him rated 12 or14 all time, forgive me if I have misquoted you.
So if you have someone at 14 I would imagine that he must be at least top 5 in his era, surely?

yes Lewis makes the Top 5... my mistake it should have been he does not make the Top 3..
1/. Holyfield
2/. Bowe
3/. Tyson
4/. Lewis

[sonnyboyx2]

Sonny who do you have above Lewis in the 90's?
I remember you saying you had him rated 12 or14 all time, forgive me if I have misquoted you.
So if you have someone at 14 I would imagine that he must be at least top 5 in his era, surely?

GJC... you are very good at picking out a "Little Abstract" of 2 or 3 words from a 1000+ word article, and unlike myself and Mickey who argue our corner on what we feel is a correct analysis of the boxer or the fight, you never seem to be able to put forward an analysis, you are like the runner at the back of the field trying your best to trip-up the leaders each time they lap you rather than making a go for glory yourself.

[GJC]

yes Lewis makes the Top 5... my mistake it should have been he does not make the Top 3..
1/. Holyfield
2/. Bowe
3/. Tyson
4/. Lewis

Fair go, think 4th is stingy but 6th or lower would be completely illogical

[GJC]

GJC... you are very good at picking out a "Little Abstract" of 2 or 3 words from a 1000+ word article, and unlike myself and Mickey who argue our corner on what we feel is a correct analysis of the boxer or the fight, you never seem to be able to put forward an analysis, you are like the runner at the back of the field trying your best to trip-up the leaders each time they lap you rather than making a go for glory yourself.

lol @ runner at the back, probably not unfair
I am sorry if I come over as a bit nit picky I shall blame my grumpy old age.
It's more a case that I enjoy reading others posts and even if I don't agree with the content I can follow the argument. I then just notice something that dosn't quite flow or fit in the argument and sort of want it clarified.
I apologise if it seems that I am trying to trip others up it is not my intention, it is more I do enjoy reading another view and want a point that I don't understand the logic behind it explaining.
You are correct I should post more rather than respond, it is just I find that whenever I go over a paragraph I lose track of my point.
If you have read any of my lengthier posts you would probably thank me for my brevity lol

[queenieerika]

Cool.... i'll be sharing a site soon on world records

[mickey malone]

QUOTE:SONNYBOYX2: We'll always agree to differ where Lewis is concerned, but if you call being exposed, giving Mike Tyson two of his toughest fights, then once again, i have to disagree..
Damaged goods?.. I remember that fight; it was for the Commonwealth belt but was also viewed as an eliminater for the world title.. Ruddock was the 'who wants him?' of boxing at the time..
He'd just KO'd Greg Page and 25-0 puncher, Phil Jackson, and was looking so good in training that he came in as a slight favourite on the night.. Then Lewis does a demolition job on him, and it was almost considered a 'shock' in some circles..
Shortly afterwards, he got careless & was stopped by Tommy Morrison in a fight he was clearly winning, and then went on to win all of his next 12 fights, so i wouldn't say he was damaged b4 the Lewis fight..
He may have got physically hurt in the wars with Tyson, but in no way was he carrying any mental scars; he was coming off of two good wins, and full of confidence in the knowledge that Tyson couldn't stop him a year earlier: Ruddock was more of an improved fighter if anything..

Ah, Tommy Morrison.. Now if you can say that it was a 'surprise punch' that Tua caught Ruiz with, then i think it's fair to say the same thing can be said with regard to Bent vs Morrison, which had occurred 8 wins, 1 draw and 2 years before he fought Lewis, and once again, if anything, Morrison was also an improved fighter.. This was quite some time b4 he was diagnozed with the alleged HIV thing, which is another debate all of it's own!

As a point of interest, Morrison in some ways, could be considered a more skillful version of Tua, but Lewis engaged Morrison toe to toe, where as he fought Tua off the back foot, which is quite odd when you think about it.. Arguments could be made that he'd become gun shy since being KO'd, or it could be appreciated that he respected Tua's power more so than Morrisons; I'd be keen to know Lewis's take on that..
I don't go a lot into LL's win over Klitschko, as it was a past prime Lewis, who tried to box cautiously, but got caught up in a war.. I'm not sure about the headbutt, so i won't comment, but Vitaly was winning the boxing match, only to lose the 'fight'..

You've made some valid points on Berbick, some of which i'll go along with.. Bey was a good fighter, and Tate did have a good reputation coming into their fight.. OK, we wasn't to know that he'd been on the piss between fights, but indeed, Berbick was the one to signal the end for Tate..
I wouldn't say the wins over a bloated Iran Barkley and the limited Gordon Rachetti were great victories, and his style hardly set the division alight but all said, i will re-consider Berbick as a top 10 fighter of the 80's..

When I say, 'regularly fighting contenders,' i mean up and coming heavyweights with good records aswell as the odd 'testing' journeyman, who also adds to a fighters reputation..
Here's some of the fighters KO'd by Tua between 1995-2005 & their records at the time they were beaten..


Nate Tubbs 17-3-0
Darroll Wilson 17-0-2
John Ruiz 25-2-0
David Izon 18-1-0
Oleg Maskaev 10-1-0
Eric Curry 22-5-0
Hasim Rahman 29-0-0
Gary Bell 21-2-0
Shane Sutcliffe 22-8-1
Obed Sullivan 35-6-1
Robert Daniels 39-4-1
Danell Nicholson 39-3-0
Fres Oquendo 22-0-0
Talmadge Griffiths 22-5-3


Tua cannot be labeled a 'class c boxer' on the strength of one bad day at the office..
Byrd is notorious for making certain styles look bad.. He even made Holyfield and Vitali look bad!.. Klitschko missed with so much leather, he popped his rotator-cuff, and quit on his stool..

The bottom line of it is; David Tua was ducked by most of the world champions over the past 10 years, because they were apprehensive about putting their titles on the line.. In short, they were scared of him!

[sonnyboyx2]

QUOTE:SONNYBOYX2: We'll always agree to differ where Lewis is concerned, but if you call being exposed, giving Mike Tyson two of his toughest fights, then once again, i have to disagree..
Damaged goods?.. I remember that fight; it was for the Commonwealth belt but was also viewed as an eliminater for the world title.. Ruddock was the 'who wants him?' of boxing at the time..
He'd just KO'd Greg Page and 25-0 puncher, Phil Jackson, and was looking so good in training that he came in as a slight favourite on the night.. Then Lewis does a demolition job on him, and it was almost considered a 'shock' in some circles..
Shortly afterwards, he got careless & was stopped by Tommy Morrison in a fight he was clearly winning, and then went on to win all of his next 12 fights, so i wouldn't say he was damaged b4 the Lewis fight..
He may have got physically hurt in the wars with Tyson, but in no way was he carrying any mental scars; he was coming off of two good wins, and full of confidence in the knowledge that Tyson couldn't stop him a year earlier: Ruddock was more of an improved fighter if anything..

Ah, Tommy Morrison.. Now if you can say that it was a 'surprise punch' that Tua caught Ruiz with, then i think it's fair to say the same thing can be said with regard to Bent vs Morrison, which had occurred 8 wins, 1 draw and 2 years before he fought Lewis, and once again, if anything, Morrison was also an improved fighter.. This was quite some time b4 he was diagnozed with the alleged HIV thing, which is another debate all of it's own!

As a point of interest, Morrison in some ways, could be considered a more skillful version of Tua, but Lewis engaged Morrison toe to toe, where as he fought Tua off the back foot, which is quite odd when you think about it.. Arguments could be made that he'd become gun shy since being KO'd, or it could be appreciated that he respected Tua's power more so than Morrisons; I'd be keen to know Lewis's take on that..
I don't go a lot into LL's win over Klitschko, as it was a past prime Lewis, who tried to box cautiously, but got caught up in a war.. I'm not sure about the headbutt, so i won't comment, but Vitaly was winning the boxing match, only to lose the 'fight'..

You've made some valid points on Berbick, some of which i'll go along with.. Bey was a good fighter, and Tate did have a good reputation coming into their fight.. OK, we wasn't to know that he'd been on the piss between fights, but indeed, Berbick was the one to signal the end for Tate..
I wouldn't say the wins over a bloated Iran Barkley and the limited Gordon Rachetti were great victories, and his style hardly set the division alight but all said, i will re-consider Berbick as a top 10 fighter of the 80's..

When I say, 'regularly fighting contenders,' i mean up and coming heavyweights with good records aswell as the odd 'testing' journeyman, who also adds to a fighters reputation..
Here's some of the fighters KO'd by Tua between 1995-2005 & their records at the time they were beaten..


Nate Tubbs 17-3-0
Darroll Wilson 17-0-2
John Ruiz 25-2-0
David Izon 18-1-0
Oleg Maskaev 10-1-0
Eric Curry 22-5-0
Hasim Rahman 29-0-0
Gary Bell 21-2-0
Shane Sutcliffe 22-8-1
Obed Sullivan 35-6-1
Robert Daniels 39-4-1
Danell Nicholson 39-3-0
Fres Oquendo 22-0-0
Talmadge Griffiths 22-5-3


Tua cannot be labeled a 'class c boxer' on the strength of one bad day at the office..
Byrd is notorious for making certain styles look bad.. He even made Holyfield and Vitali look bad!.. Klitschko missed with so much leather, he popped his rotator-cuff, and quit on his stool..

The bottom line of it is; David Tua was ducked by most of the world champions over the past 10 years, because they were apprehensive about putting their titles on the line.. In short, they were scared of him!

Mickey... short & sweet mate because i am getting bored with this argument as some of your quotes are bordering on laughable!

Ruddock had his jaw, cheek-bone & eye socket samashed by Mike Tyson in their 2nd fight...

Phil Jackson 25-0 was a pathetic joke who had fought no-one of note.

Greg Page had suffered a brutal KO by Mark Wills which i mentioned earlier... have you seen that fight?

Ruddock never landed a single punch against Lewis (i was there) he was gun shy.. also Lewis was 10/11 favourite.

Michael Bents victory over Morrison in no way represents the Ruiz vs Tua fight...Ruiz was cold-****ed in 19 seconds including the 10 count when hit with the first shot of the fight.... Morrison was all over Bent for 2 minutes until he was hit with a 3 punch combo and took a knee, he went down twice more and the fight was waved off...

Morrison turned to acting in movies and was on the downslide of his career... it was also well known that Morrison was a steroid abuser and easy meat for a bigger guy like Lewis or Bowe.

The list of fighters you have put up are fighters rated in the 50-25 bracket who had padded records and failed when they fought out of the Class C class.

David Tua IMO has never had much boxing ability and i would find it difficult to see him beat any fighter by decision using his boxing skills.. i agree that Tua is a very heavy puncher and that is his only strong point in this sport.. as i pointed out earlier i can never recall David Tua being in a position to challenge any top fighters or being avoided by the top fighters, infact whenever Tua had a half-decent victory he was immediately chosen by the top fighters as their next opponent simply because they knew he was "easy-meat" due to his lack of ability... Lennox Lewis said" Tua will need more than a big left-hook & a funny haircut, to beat me"..... i just could not see Tua beating the likes of Witherspoon, Tubbs, Berbick, Smith etc... he would have to win by KO and i feel they was all to seasoned for that to happen