Better middleweight - Hagler or Hopkins?

[Obama]

No he wasn't,regardless of his controversial loss to Shane Mosley,he still wasn't greater than Winky Wright at 154.

Winky became the best when he beat Mosley twice. DLH earned the status as best in the division before Winky nonetheless. If Winky didn't price himself out, he could have actually got a fight with DLH and sealed his legacy as an ATG.

But at least he still makes the HOF, hopefully. Maybe they'll get to him a decade after Lloyd Marshall finally gets in...

[Adamantium]

Hagler is the man.

[TheGreatA]

Why,because Ring Magazine rated him so highly? Perhaps you should go look back on how highly rated Thomas Damgaard was by Ring Magazine also.

Iran Barkley had what,seven fights at the time he fought Robbie Sims? Sounds like a top win looking back on it,but it didn't mean **** at the time.You are clearly trolling - James Green,Tony Chiaverini - this is impressive?

Sebastian Sylvester is a greater win than any win that Sims has.Khoren Gevor wasn't robbed as you seem to suggest,he outworked Sturm early on and Sturm was able to recover later on to seal the win,the result is controversial to those who don't particularly like Sturm,I saw reviews of that fight that suggested that Gevor had won by nine to ten rounds which is ridiculous.


Just out of interest,is Caveman lee comparable to Felix Sturm also?

A win over Sebastian Sylvester is better than anything Sims accomplished? I've followed Sylvester's career and fellow countryman Asikainen knocked Sylvester out. Is that a better accomplishment than anything Sims managed? Sylvester might hold a tin belt but he is not that good. Decent technician, well-conditioned, actually the same height as Duran.

I felt Gevor beat Sturm and I watched and scored it live. Sturm did nothing but get pounded on in the early rounds and I didn't think he came back that well in the late rounds, certainly didn't "seal" the win.

Please tell me about all the wins Sturm has that are better than James Green and Tony Chiaverini. 40 year old Masolino Masoe maybe? A disputed SD over Hector Velazco?

I've watched a couple of Barkley fights early on in his career and he was already a strong, durable fighter. Sims actually knocked him out for the 10 count, worse than even Benn or Toney did. The only reason Sims didn't receive a title shot in the mid 1980's is because he was the half-brother of Marvin Hagler.

Caveman Lee was a clubfighter, Robbie Sims was once the number 1 ranked middleweight contender in the world. Hardly comparable. You said Sturm was "leagues above" Sims and I disputed that.

[CRESCENDOPOWER]

Hagler is the man.

My heart wants to believe that, but my mind wants to tell me that a 6 foot one inch extremely crafty technician could have the game plan to spoil things. I believe the first 3 rounds could go to Hopkins until Hagler gets into a groove. The last couple of rounds of a 12 round fight could make all the difference. From what I have seen in boxing throughout the years this fight prime vs. prime might be one of best fights of all time.

[Adamantium]

My heart wants to believe that, but my mind wants to tell me that a 6 foot one inch extremely crafty technician could have the game plan to spoil things. I believe the first 3 rounds could go to Hopkins until Hagler gets into a groove. The last couple of rounds of a 12 round fight could make all the difference. From what I have seen in boxing throughout the years this fight prime vs. prime might be one of best fights of all time.

The amusing thing is that if they fought in the 80's Hagler would be a mw and Hopkins a lhw. And if they fought today Hagler would be a ww and Hopkins a mw.

[Princemanspopa]

I felt Gevor beat Sturm and I watched and scored it live. Sturm did nothing but get pounded on in the early rounds and I didn't think he came back that well in the late rounds, certainly didn't "seal" the win.


I've watched a couple of Barkley fights early on in his career and he was already a strong, durable fighter. Sims actually knocked him out for the 10 count, worse than even Benn or Toney did. The only reason Sims didn't receive a title shot in the mid 1980's is because he was the half-brother of Marvin Hagler.

Getting outworked does not equate to getting "pounded on".Gevor caught nothing but Sturms gloves the majority of the time.I myself scored the bout a draw and yes Sturm did come back strong through the middle to latter rounds.Had Gevor had been credited with a knockdown,then I would have given him the fight by a point but he didn't and I scored it a draw.It's not like Gevor was impressive anyway,Sturm pretty much allowed him to get inside and he seemed content with having the fight take place there and when they were fighting on the inside,Sturm was landing the cleaner punches and I'll take clean punches over workrate.


barkley had eight fights and nothing changes that,barkley had other losses around that time to complete bums,who never amounted to anything,doesn't matter if he looked durable or not to you,he was inexperienced and the win only grew over time when barkley did actually reach world class level.


The rest of your post doesn't lead anywhere,it's a simple case of you overrating certain fighters and underrating others as you usually do.


There were a number of more deserving middleweights than Sims around that time and they weren't getting title shots either,so even without the relations I doubt that Sims would have ever gotten a title shot.

The amusing thing is that if they fought in the 80's Hagler would be a mw and Hopkins a lhw. And if they fought today Hagler would be a ww and Hopkins a mw.

Do you even know what you just posted?

[TheGreatA]

Getting outworked doesn not equate to getting "pounded on".Gevor caught nothing but Sturms gloves the majority of the time.I myself scored the bout a draw and yes Sturm did come back strong through the middle to latter rounds.Had Gevor had been credited with a knockdown,then I would have given him the fight by a point but he didn't and I scored it a draw.It's not like Gevor was impressive anyway,Sturm pretty much allowed him to get inside and he seemed content with having the fight take place there and when they were fighting on the inside,Sturm was landing the cleaner punches and I'll take clean punches over workrate.

Yes, Sturm did allow him to walk in, much like he allowed Castillejo to walk in. He just isn't that good. Neither is Gevor. Abraham, who you don't rate, KO'd Gevor and would have likely KO'd Sturm as well had Sturm accepted the fight offer.

barkley had eight fights and nothing changes that,barkley had other losses around that time to complete bums,who never amounted to anything,doesn't matter if he looked durable or not to you,he was inexperienced and the win only grew over time when barkley did actually reach world class level.

Barkley beat undefeated Esteban Pizzarro in his next fight. Pizzarro once defeated former LHW champ Leslie Stewart. Barkley went onto become better but he was already a tough fighter and Sims was the only one to have him down for the full 10 count.

The rest of your post doesn't lead anywhere,it's a simple case of you overrating certain fighters and underrating others as you usually do.

Underrating certain fighters? I've seen these people fight and I'm rating them as I see it. I'd love to hear from you about the underrated abilities of a Masolino Masoe and Hector Velazco.

There were a number of more deserving middleweights than Sims around that time and they weren't getting title shots either,so even without the relations I doubt that Sims would have ever gotten a title shot.

Perhaps but he did get a title shot immediately after Hagler retired.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...n+hagler&hl=en

[Princemanspopa]

Yes, Sturm did allow him to walk in, much like he allowed Castillejo to walk in. He just isn't that good. Neither is Gevor. Abraham, who you don't rate, KO'd Gevor and would have likely KO'd Sturm as well had Sturm accepted the fight offer.

Point out where I ever said that I didn't rate Abraham,hell,If anyone doesn't rate him it's you.I was arguing in his case on a completely different thread against you.Likely doesn't mean ****,all you can do is speculate.

Barkley beat undefeated Esteban Pizzarro in his next fight. Pizzarro once defeated former LHW champ Leslie Stewart. Barkley went onto become better but he was already a tough fighter and Sims was the only one to have him down for the full 10 count.

It's easy to go to boxrec and find a good win achieved by some no hoper,but I prefer to look back on a fighters career,rather than one win.My point still stands,barkley was a nobody at that time who was losing to other nobodies at the time

Underrating certain fighters? I've seen these people fight and I'm rating them as I see it. I'd love to hear from you about the underrated abilities of a Masolino Masoe and Hector Velazco.

Two fighters who you brought up,not me.

Perhaps but he did get a title shot immediately after Hagler retired.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...n+hagler&hl=en

The division,despite being stacked with talent was a mess at the time.Everybody and their mother recieved a title shot,including Juan Roldan.

[TheGreatA]

Point out where I ever said that I didn't rate Abraham,hell,If anyone doesn't rate him it's you.I was arguing in his case on a completely different thread against you.Likely doesn't mean ****,all you can do is speculate.

You said this when replying to me:

I'll download and watch this tomorrow with the froch-dirrell fight but I don't expect to be impressed with Abraham,I never have been and unless he showed tremendous improvements in his workrate then I never will be.

You were arguing for his chin, not his boxing skills. I remain skeptical of his durability.

It's easy to go to boxrec and find a good win achieved by some no hoper,but I prefer to look back on a fighters career,rather than one win.My point still stands,barkley was a nobody at that time who was losing to other nobodies at the time

The point is that while Barkley wasn't as good as he would become, he was still a strong, durable opponent and a hard hitter which is obvious to anyone who has watched his fights from that stage of his career, or the Sims-Barkley fight itself.

He lost a split decision to Eddie Hall but Sims knocked him out like no one else ever did. Aside from the loss to Hall, Barkley didn't lose until facing Kalambay.

Honestly if Sturm had KO'd an inexperienced Carl Froch it would look impressive on his record.

Two fighters who you brought up,not me.

I brought them up because aside from a win over Sylvester, a disputed decision over Gevor (which you admittedly scored a draw), a draw and a win over Randy Griffin and going 1-1 with an ancient Javier Castillejo, there's nothing else other than the two.

The division,despite being stacked with talent was a mess at the time.Everybody and their mother recieved a title shot,including Juan Roldan.

Because Roldan knocked Frank "The Animal" Fletcher out cold. He also KO'd the man you accused Hagler of avoiding, James "The Heat" Kinchen. Former WBC LHW champ JB Williamson was another Roldan victim. He was not bad at all.

[Princemanspopa]

You said this when replying to me:


You were arguing for his chin, not his boxing skills. I remain skeptical of his durability.

How does me being not impressed as a viewer of his fights have anything to do with his talent? Now,I can understand why someone may have picked that up as me discrediting his skills but notice that I had included "workrate" in there,which really has more to do with his style than skills.I said that Taylor would beat him and I was wrong but I never said he was crap,just that I didn't find him particularly interesting to watch.

Because Roldan knocked Frank "The Animal" Fletcher out cold. He also KO'd the man you accused Hagler of avoiding, James "The Heat" Kinchen. Former WBC LHW champ JB Williamson was another Roldan victim. He was not bad at all.

I never said that Roldan was a bad fighter,with only one eye,he gave a near enough prime Marvin Hagler his greatest struggle as a champion up until Ray Leonard.My point was that the middleweight division was a mess at that point and poorly organised ever since Leonard had won the WBC title from Hagler and the WBA AND IBF had stripped Hagler of his respective titles.