Mike Tyson Vs Sonny Liston

[GJC]

Debating; not arguing.

I'm talking about the Jab.

In my opinion, even with Listons jab, it is still slow enough for Tyson to counter...counter behind his own jab which was fast, accurate, hard, can be thrown in 2's and 3's...and Tyson was good at timing.

Dunno Benny,

Thinking back when Tyson was at his peak I always thought about the sort of fighter who would beat him and had in my mind a fighter with decent reach, who knows how to use that reach, good jab, can control the centre of the ring, needs to take a good shot.
Liston ticks a lot of boxes?

[StarshipTrooper]

Dunno Benny,

Thinking back when Tyson was at his peak I always thought about the sort of fighter who would beat him and had in my mind a fighter with decent reach, who knows how to use that reach, good jab, can control the centre of the ring, needs to take a good shot.
Liston ticks a lot of boxes?

Honestly, I've always seen this as a bad, bad stylistic matchup for Tyson. It's pretty much a carbon-copy of a prime-Foreman Vs. Tyson matchup which I've always seen as pretty much a replay of Foreman Vs. Frazier I. Just a bad styles match that exaggerates the qualitative differences between the fighters.

Poet

[blacklodge]

Patterson fought scared and didn't do anything which is why Liston had no trouble. Ability, Speed, etc....took no part in that fight. Patterson was frozen stiff.

Ruddock had power, size, strength, height, etc. One shot from him and Patterson goes down. Patterson would not take his shots.

Ah, Tucker was a Big Man and had a solid punch and Bruno as well. Only Bruno hurt him out of the two and both were punches that were thrown as Tyson was throwing which is a great time to hurt someone...and in both cases Tyson struck back and won...didn't go down. Patterson would have dropped to the floor.

Douglas: McCall said Douglas could hit. In fact, Douglas hit him harder than Lennox Lewis. And, if you hadnt' seen the fight (which I doubt), how many times did Douglas hit him again before he went down?
What round?
And what shape was Tyson in?

Holyfield: Again, an unfit Tyson who even Evander said knew he had the advantage because Tyson hadn't been hit since he got out of jail (which was 3 years rotting away). And how many rounds and how many hits did it take Tyson to get knocked out on his feet from a swollen version of Holyfield?


"If he could go fight Lewis and not train, he'd do it. He'd just show up and take his best shot on sheer ability. Mike only trained for two weeks, and he made it 11 rounds with Holyfield."
Tommy Brooks

http://espn.go.com/columns/wojnarows...n/1317765.html

To be a fighter you should be well trained...you should be prepared both mentally and physically to fight. Every corner you cut in camp is one strike against you going into a fight.

If Tyson had Patterson's chin he wouldn't have lasted as long as he did. After Spinks, Tyson stood taller and moved his head less and less. The Big Guys would have taken him out early if not for his chin. His training habits were already suspect after he left Rooney which means his stamina was going to be even more suspect...and when your stamina isn't good, and when you are tired, you are more likely to get knocked out.


Cooper and Banks knocked Ali down.
Moore and Walcott knocked Marciano down.
Foreman was knocked out by Ali.
Lewis was knocked out by Rahman and McCall.
Liston was knocked out by Ali.

And the list goes on and on.


Tyson's Chin:


"Now, were they (Tyson's media critics) at the same fight I was? I mean, what do they want from this guy? Here's Ruddock, who everyone agreed had the greatest single shot in boxing, his left hook, and he tags Mike several times right on the button with it, and Mike doesn't go down.

"I used to think Larry (Holmes) had the greatest chin I ever saw. After Friday, I changed my mind. No one, ever, had a better chin than Mike's." Richie Giachetti

http://articles.latimes.com/1991-07-...1_tyson-fights

And there is enough commentating from Ferdie Pacheco in that second fight to tell you all you need to know about Tyson's ability to take a punch.

Point is, Tyson fought big punchers as well as Big men in general...so he proved his worth more than Patterson to stand and take the risk to fight back. Now add in Tyson's head-movement, he gets hit less.

Liston wasn't the fastest of punchers either.

Geez, where to start? Let me first say that we can debate this without condesending remarks about what fights I have or haven't seen. Let's keep it real, and let the takes speak for themselves. And come on, do I sound like the kind of cat who would show his mug on a boxing history board without seeing Tyson-Douglas? 14 year old blond girls from Australia have seen that fight.
Anyway, I don't see what Ruddock being able to KO Patterson has anything to do with Tyson-Liston. That's not even a stretch, it's a different topic. I never said Tyson was chinny, or that his ability to take a punch was comparable to Patterson at all. Tyson could take a punch, but you are vastly overrating his ability to take a punch. I don't think undertraining makes Marvin Hagler turn into Thomas Hearns. And are you saying that Marciano, Foreman and Ali weren't in shape for the fights you mentioned? The fact remains that Tony Tucker made a prime Tyson skip a bit late in their fight, Bruno wobbled him, Douglas hurt Tyson several times, having him out on his feet twice, as did Holyfield, and Liston hit harder than all of them by a considerable magin. Bruno aside, I stand by my take on Douglas and Holyfield (and certainly Tucker) having a medium punch, at best.
I expect Oliver McCall to say something like Douglas hit harder than Lewis, which is preposterous and he knows it, since Douglas beat him and he beat Lewis. Also, I don't expect realist information from Brooks and Giachetti (no one outside of his fat greasy head thought Ruddock had "the greatest single shot in boxing", that's crazy talk), two guys on Tyson's payroll at one time or another. And Ferdie Pacheco is an outright buffoon.
Tyson did NOT fight big punchers. He was always troubled by a good jab. Liston had a tremendous jab. Liston had the skills, size, mentality and power to take Tyson to pieces, and I think he would.

[TheGreatA]

I wouldn't say Patterson fought scared, he fought ******. I've seen pre-fight interviews with Patterson before the Liston fight and he seemed confident in his chances. He fought with an aggressive style as he did many times and it ended up being the wrong strategy. Had he stayed away and boxed, he may have gone a couple of more rounds but still not many more.

In the second fight he did freeze but that was after having already been knocked out in one round by Liston.



Tyson had a good chin but he could be hurt and discouraged. Ruddock was way too one-dimensional by the time he fought Tyson, earlier on he had been more of a boxer. During the Tyson fights he could only throw a telegraphed left hand with which he thought he could knock anybody out. Didn't happen.

[boxingbuff]

the ref. both of these might quit. tyson by a shade' he was qiucker. liston could be awfully slow but had a very hard hook. both had decent chins, both were not tough guys, mentally tough. you woulndt see either getting valor medals

Liston fought 8 rounds with a broken jaw early in his career against a seasoned and experienced pro.Liston lost a close decision,but he was hitting his opponent so hard in the 10th and final round that he stepped out of the ring!!

I believe Liston was more menacing and intimiting.Sonny also had one of the best chins in Heavyweight history(Everybody knows the 2nd Ali-Liston fight was fixed)

I believe Mike Tyson was made for Liston.His STYLE was made for Liston.

I see a quick end to a very brutal fight.Something like Liston's two fights against hard hitting Cleveland "Big Cat" Williams,but Tyson's style is even more made for Liston than Williams.

Liston in 2 rounds of a very entertaining and great fight,and very brutal.

Liston wins by the 3 knock down rule.

[Benny Leonard]

I wouldn't say Patterson fought scared, he fought ******. I've seen pre-fight interviews with Patterson before the Liston fight and he seemed confident in his chances. He fought with an aggressive style as he did many times and it ended up being the wrong strategy. Had he stayed away and boxed, he may have gone a couple of more rounds but still not many more.

In the second fight he did freeze but that was after having already been knocked out in one round by Liston.



Tyson had a good chin but he could be hurt and discouraged. Ruddock was way too one-dimensional by the time he fought Tyson, earlier on he had been more of a boxer. During the Tyson fights he could only throw a telegraphed left hand with which he thought he could knock anybody out. Didn't happen.

Liston can be hurt as well.

It's the punch you don't see that hurts you....Tyson was good at that.

And still, we are talking about a fighter that won the Olympic Gold at MW and then started to put on weight to get to HW in an era where 175+ was good...going up against a 200+ pound HW in Sonny Liston.
Patterson was more of a LH to me.

Could you imagine LH Roy Jones beating young Tyson...even the HW version of Roy?

Maybe Patterson wasn't scared but I did read an article that said he was from people that saw him before the fight...but that could be their opinion.

I saw the interviews before with Patterson talking about Liston but that was Patterson: calm and collected...very genial. He was far away from the battle.

Here is something: Shamrba Mitchell talked a lot of trash about Kostya Tszyu before their fight....will take the second fight for example...and he seemed relatively confident he would beat Tszyu. Anyway, when people saw him before the fight, in the locker-room...like Emanuel Steward and Tyson, they said he looked scared and were even surprised.

[Benny Leonard]

Geez, where to start? Let me first say that we can debate this without condesending remarks about what fights I have or haven't seen. Let's keep it real, and let the takes speak for themselves. And come on, do I sound like the kind of cat who would show his mug on a boxing history board without seeing Tyson-Douglas? 14 year old blond girls from Australia have seen that fight.
Anyway, I don't see what Ruddock being able to KO Patterson has anything to do with Tyson-Liston. That's not even a stretch, it's a different topic. I never said Tyson was chinny, or that his ability to take a punch was comparable to Patterson at all. Tyson could take a punch, but you are vastly overrating his ability to take a punch. I don't think undertraining makes Marvin Hagler turn into Thomas Hearns. And are you saying that Marciano, Foreman and Ali weren't in shape for the fights you mentioned? The fact remains that Tony Tucker made a prime Tyson skip a bit late in their fight, Bruno wobbled him, Douglas hurt Tyson several times, having him out on his feet twice, as did Holyfield, and Liston hit harder than all of them by a considerable magin. Bruno aside, I stand by my take on Douglas and Holyfield (and certainly Tucker) having a medium punch, at best.
I expect Oliver McCall to say something like Douglas hit harder than Lewis, which is preposterous and he knows it, since Douglas beat him and he beat Lewis. Also, I don't expect realist information from Brooks and Giachetti (no one outside of his fat greasy head thought Ruddock had "the greatest single shot in boxing", that's crazy talk), two guys on Tyson's payroll at one time or another. And Ferdie Pacheco is an outright buffoon.
Tyson did NOT fight big punchers. He was always troubled by a good jab. Liston had a tremendous jab. Liston had the skills, size, mentality and power to take Tyson to pieces, and I think he would.

My point with the "Chin" is that most fighters, even the Greats, have been put on their ass. With Tyson, it was always from accumulation...and he was more vulnerable when he stopped training properly. Head-movement and your own attack = less chance of being hit. Highly conditioned and Mentally focused to fight = less chance of being hurt.
Being poorly conditioned and not focused to fight, not focused to take punches, will leave you on the ground. We see this all the time with past prime fighters fighting for a paycheck.

Ali wasn't a "puncher" yet he was able to KO Liston and Foreman...even hurt Frazier. Many factors as to why: Liston was past his prime which can hurt a bit. Liston couldn't see the punches coming which also hurts. That's why he was knocked out in the second fight; he didn't see the punch coming.

Foreman: exhausted himself and made himself vulnerable for Ali to tag him but it wouldn't be the last time he was dropped. Lyle knocked him down and so did Young.

Marciano: always in shape but got dropped twice by solid shots.

Ali: Dropped and nearly knocked out by Cooper and Banks had him down.

All fighters known for their "Chin" yet all went down and were hurt.

That's boxing.


I doubt Liston hit harder than Tucker, Douglas, and Bruno by "considerable margin." This is one things fans get way out of hand with by saying fighters hit 10x hard than another when in truth, there may be a difference but it isn't day and night difference. Hard punchers are hard punchers.
Shavers can probably hit harder than Foreman but not by a lot; the same with Foreman and Tyson and so on. They are all punchers. They are all big 200+ pound fighters.

McCall said Douglas hit him harder than Lewis so maybe Lewis is a soft puncher. Holyfield also mentioned that one thing that made him cautious and train for Douglas was because he also saw the power in Douglas, specifically his Jab...a Jab that had rocked and knocked an opponent down.
Plus, again, accumulation. How many times did Douglas nail Tyson clean throughout that fight?
Then, remember, you are more vulnerable when you are in poor condition both mentally and physically. A lot goes into being able to absorb punishment.

This is why I brought up Holyfield as well: Holyfield said Tyson hadn't taken a hit since getting out of jail so he knew he could get to Tyson.
Take for example Ali: When he came out of jail he changed his method in sparring to allow sparring partners to unload on him in order to get his body adjusted to taking punches again and build his tolerance. Without that, he isn't lasting against Frazier and Foreman.
For Tyson, he slacked off in training as mentioned in the article I put up.
And then again, condition: If you are not in shape you start to exhaust and once you exhaust your body is susceptible to being hurt.

expect Oliver McCall to say something like Douglas hit harder than Lewis, which is preposterous and he knows it, since Douglas beat him and he beat Lewis. Also, I don't expect realist information from Brooks and Giachetti (no one outside of his fat greasy head thought Ruddock had "the greatest single shot in boxing", that's crazy talk), two guys on Tyson's payroll at one time or another. And Ferdie Pacheco is an outright buffoon.

Let's just go ahead and discount what anybody in boxing says.

That's their opinion and you have yours.


But you would think, a 6'5, 240 pound Heavy Puncher in Lennox Lewis would have taken out a Shot version of Tyson in round 1 since I guess in your opinion, Tyson's chin was just above average.

Even Lewis said he was amazed at what Tyson could take. And that is from a fighter that wasn't training properly, wasn't motivated, and had already taken beatings in and outside of the ring.

[TheGreatA]

Liston can be hurt as well.

It's the punch you don't see that hurts you....Tyson was good at that.

I wouldn't argue that but I was mostly responding to Giachetti's claim that Tyson had the "greatest chin of all time". Now that's an overstatement.

Razor Ruddock threw bombs but Tyson pretty much knew they were coming and just grit his teeth. No variety from Ruddock whatsoever.

[Benny Leonard]

I wouldn't argue that but I was mostly responding to Giachetti's claim that Tyson had the "greatest chin of all time". Now that's an overstatement.

Razor Ruddock threw bombs but Tyson pretty much knew they were coming and just grit his teeth. No variety from Ruddock whatsoever.

Well that may be a stretch but he still had a point. Tyson's chin was solid.

Liston didn't hit as fast as Ruddock and was coming in from more eye-level...Tyson couldn't prepare himself for Liston's punches?


Some of the punches Ruddock did land landed on Tyson's blind side...second fight.

Ruddock did hurt Tyson in their second fight as well but Tyson still stood up and fought back.
He was catching Tyson clean at times as well.

[TheGreatA]

Well that may be a stretch but he still had a point. Tyson's chin was solid.

Liston didn't hit as fast as Ruddock and was coming in from more eye-level...Tyson couldn't prepare himself for Liston's punches?


Some of the punches Ruddock did land landed on Tyson's blind side...second fight.

Tyson had a solid chin, even Teddy Atlas would agree with you on that.

Liston had much better variety. Against Patterson he seemed to anticipate Patterson's movements before Floyd even made his move. He could hurt people with jabs, right hands, hooks and uppercuts from either hand.


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