Mike Tyson Vs Sonny Liston

[mickey malone]

Ali, then Cassius Clay, wasn't expected to beat Liston because he wasn't thought of as much. Ali obviously proved everyone wrong and went onto become possibly the greatest heavyweight of all time. I don't see the point in saying "Liston was favoured", "Ali wasn't highly regarded", it's still Muhammad Ali we are talking about.

Douglas too wasn't expected to beat Tyson (42 to 1 odds), he went onto get knocked out by Holyfield and balloon up to 400 pounds.

The names you listed were good but hardly comparable to Sonny Liston, aside from possibly Ruddock who as I already pointed out was much more one-dimensional.

I'd compare those fighters to Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Eddie Machen, Nino Valdes and so on. They would have been world champions as well had there been three or more titles around. Unfortunately there was only one and it belonged to Sonny Liston.

Exactly I listed them in comparison to the fighters you listed, ie Listons opponents, NOT Liston himself, I'm just highlighting why a pre-Douglas Tyson, beats any version of Sonny Liston..

[GJC]

first of all they are not as tough as you make them out to be,if liston was fighting today he would not even be good enough to be a sparring partner,and if tyson were fighting today he would not even be ranked in the top 50,the fight game as changed boxers do not get intimidated,if tyson and liston were to fight liston would not last one round he would get kayoed

To be fair what previous ATG could get into the current deep top 50 HW's?

It is so hard to crack look at what it took for Tua to get rated @ 12, he had to beat Shane Cameron in his first fight for 2 years.
Briggs is at 30 he has lost his only fight in 3 years.

If Tyson hit his postman he'd be in the top 20.

[GJC]

I can't get past Liston's jab and 84 inch reach on this one.
I don't think Tyson would either often enough before Liston put some serious hurt on him.

[TheGreatA]

To be fair what previous ATG could get into the current deep top 50 HW's?

It is so hard to crack look at what it took for Tua to get rated @ 12, he had to beat Shane Cameron in his first fight for 2 years.
Briggs is at 30 he has lost his only fight in 3 years.

If Tyson hit his postman he'd be in the top 20.

Tyson's sparring partner Oliver McCall is top 50.

[StarshipTrooper]

I can't get past Liston's jab and 84 inch reach on this one.
I don't think Tyson would either often enough before Liston put some serious hurt on him.

Exactly I listed them in comparison to the fighters you listed, ie Listons opponents, NOT Liston himself, I'm just highlighting why a pre-Douglas Tyson, beats any version of Sonny Liston..

What this discussion really boils down to is not so much how you view Tyson as it is how you rate Liston. There's a wide divergence of opinion as to how good he really was: Some think him grossly overrated some underrated. I tend to side with the latter as I rank Sonny the #6 all-time Heavyweight.

Poet

[mickey malone]

What this discussion really boils down to is not so much how you view Tyson as it is how you rate Liston. There's a wide divergence of opinion as to how good he really was: Some think him grossly overrated some underrated. I tend to side with the latter as I rank Sonny the #6 all-time Heavyweight.

Poet

I'd say that I'm probably in the minority in this debate, and don't rate him quite as highly as most of you guys.. He is by no means a slouch at 10 on my sig..

[StarshipTrooper]

I'd say that I'm probably in the minority in this debate, and don't rate him quite as highly as most of you guys.. He is by no means a slouch at 10 on my sig..

Yeah, you and I basically flip Tyson and Liston. I have Liston 6 and Tyson 10 while you have Tyson 6 and Liston 10

Poet

[Benny Leonard]

I can't get past Liston's jab and 84 inch reach on this one.
I don't think Tyson would either often enough before Liston put some serious hurt on him.

I understand reach is a big deal but you are going to have to name me an opponent when Tyson was with Rooney and trained that reach prevented him from winning?

It's like people act like Tyson was the Giant in there when in the majority of his fights he was the smaller Man, both in height and weight....and was always at a disadvantage with reach.

Tucker was really the only one to give him fits with the jab and even him, at
6'5, 220+ and an 82 inch reach, started to get out-jabbed when Rooney demanded the 5'11, 215 pounds, and only a 71 inch reach Tyson to start using the jab. And Tucker was on the move and liked to clinch so it made it even harder.

Tyson has Speed, Accuracy, Timing and elusiveness...also the ability to double, triple up on his jab....specifically with smaller fighters closer to his height. Much harder to leap up and throw a jab against a 6'5 fighter that is moving like Tucker.

Liston isn't that fast and if you keep too far away from him, sure, that 84 inch reach comes in play more.
Tyson would have to worry about Liston's inside game which was very good...as well as Liston's ability to defend and understand distance when somebody is trying to attack him. Only Clay/Ali was Liston out-matched...although Liston was arguably past it...but I'm not quite sure how much it would have mattered because it was Ali.


But if you point me to some fights I may be over-looking, I'll take a look and consider it.

[StarshipTrooper]

I understand reach is a big deal but you are going to have to name me an opponent when Tyson was with Rooney and trained that reach prevented him from winning?

The riposte to that, though, is that Tyson fought no one of Liston's calibre when he was Rooney trained let alone someone of Liston's calibre who had a huge reach advantage. It wasn't until Mike fought Lennox Lewis that it could be said that he had and in fairness to Tyson he was pretty much washed up by that point.

Poet

[GJC]

Liston isn't that fast and if you keep too far away from him, sure, that 84 inch reach comes in play more.
Tyson would have to worry about Liston's inside game which was very good...as well as Liston's ability to defend and understand distance when somebody is trying to attack him.

Reach is important but only if the guy with the bigger reach knows how to use it. A lot of the fighters who Tyson was fighting when with Rooney were not even landing a jab on Tyson. Tyson was fast but they should have landed something, only problem was they were beaten before they got in there and were in pure survival mode. No one tried to control the centre of the ring behind their jab.
My problem with Tyson is that as you point out he isn't going to win inside either so long range I have Liston favourite and inside too.
Remember Bonecrusher outstrengthed Tyson and nullified him on the inside and limited Tyson to one shot combos so to speak, Tyson isn't going to knock out Liston with one punch in my view.
Both have good chins so I don't see a fast fight either way so after around 8 rounds I think Liston's jabs are going to count big time.
It is not a dead cert, Tyson has a chance for sure, but I favour the 59 Liston strongly.