Am I some newbie who's jumping the gun about Usyk's place on the Pantheon?

[max baer]

Willow you are as far from a newbie or naive as one can get. i respect your writing probably the most of anyone on this forum and I tend to agree with much of what you say.
One thing is that I am not a man who understands boxing technique and when I watch a fight I often don't see one man's complete dominance unless it is blatant. You on the other hand do understand technique and you can see the intricate nuances.
So when you assert that this man is a bit special I take notice. I am just a boxing fan who loves the build up and the excitement and the history of the sport especially the heavyweight division as it is the one that all men consider the king kong and it carries such weight around the world which is why some hw chanpions have been among the most famous men of the century such as iron mike and ali in the twentieth century.
So when you put Usyk at number 2 i feel caution before I agree with you because I think a large part of our esteem of the greatest hw champs is decided after their final retirment and then some years down the road. Then we can really judge them.
I don't think Usyk can be number 2 atg. I feel there are not enough fierce competitors to challenge him to claim he is nearly the goat. Let's say if we look at ali's 70's successes he had to overcome foreman with his stength and then frazier with his amazing peekaboo style and other styles and talents to climb to the top. I think usyk's wins over fury made us think of him as possibly the goat but i really don't think he would have been successful against a younger fury.
We have to look at the fierce competition that ali faced.
Me personally I think Lewis really is the goat above ali. Or at least number two as he defeated so many men who were fierce and what is more they were at their peak when he beat them. They were the type of men that had knockout showreels of their own like tua,rudduck, morrison, holyfield etc. Even coming up he beat other fighters coming up with great hunger such as bruno and garry mason etc. Usyk at the moment can't say his resume matches that of lewis.
That said, as we must have written here a trillion times between us, "he can only beat the men they put in front of him" and usyk has done what he wanted every time.
Just all in all I think your estimation of him below the greatest is simply too much based on zitegeist of the moment and not something that you may feel after settling down again after what was a masterful performance by the ukrainien.

[MalevolentBite]

Wait a sec. Wait a sec. Deontay Wilder over Floyd Patterson? :0

I agree with the others. Achievement wise hes probably the GOAT. Talent wise he is also up there but let's be serious. This isnt the 90s heavyweight era, 80s and damn sure not the 60s/70s. Thats not his fault but to give him top 2 is little bit too high because most of the top 20 actually fought each other.

None of the guys he beat were even top ATG champions on most people's list. You got AJ at 28 and Tyson Fury at 15. Beating those guys can't put you at #2 All time.

Do I think he could compete and beat some of the top 10 guys ? I do. Its just hard to place him that high with the people on his resume.

I will give you top 10 after that its anybodys call but top 3? Not in my book. There's just too much of a talent gap between him and these heavyweights now a days to gauge him. He doesn't even need to get into 2nd gear with these people.

also lets not act like America has produced any great American Heavyweight post 1997. I made an artcle in this history section and i had chris byrd as the best American heavyweight in the last 25 years. He didnt make your list but wilder did ( which is fine) but he never even gotten the chance to challenge him self against an elite American heavyweight and he never will. It's like the Babe Ruth situation you are only as good as the people you play against. I think holmes, norton , Foreman, Ali, Louis, Jack Johnson all give uysk a run for his money. I do think hes above Bowe ( even thats hard to guage). I also on the fence with Holyfield. These were all smart heavyweights with skills and some dominated at the Olympics.

Hes the best cruiserweight of all time. Heavyweight top 10.

[max baer]

queeny, what say you? is usyk number 2 goat? what say you old boy?

[Dr Z]

. I am just a boxing fan who loves the build up and the excitement and the history of the sport especially the heavyweight division as it is the one that all men consider the king kong and it carries such weight around the world which is why some hw chanpions have been among the most famous men of the century such as iron mike and ali in the twentieth century.
So when you put Usyk at number 2 i feel caution before I agree with you because I think a large part of our esteem of the greatest hw champs is decided after their final retirment and then some years down the road. Then we can really judge them.
I don't think Usyk can be number 2 atg. I feel there are not enough fierce competitors to challenge him to claim he is nearly the goat. Let's say if we look at ali's 70's successes he had to overcome foreman with his stength and then frazier with his amazing peekaboo style and other styles and talents to climb to the top. I think usyk's wins over fury made us think of him as possibly the goat but i really don't think he would have been successful against a younger fury.
We have to look at the fierce competition that ali faced.
Me personally I think Lewis really is the goat above ali. Or at least number two as he defeated so many men who were fierce and what is more they were at their peak when he beat them. They were the type of men that had knockout showreels of their own like tua,rudduck, morrison, holyfield etc. Even coming up he beat other fighters coming up with great hunger such as bruno and garry mason etc. Usyk at the moment can't say his resume matches that of lewis.
That said, as we must have written here a trillion times between us, "he can only beat the men they put in front of him" and usyk has done what he wanted every time.
Just all in all I think your estimation of him below the greatest is simply too much based on zitegeist of the moment and not something that you may feel after settling down again after what was a masterful performance by the ukrainien.

You are a good fan but a bit of a UK homer ( Not that there's anything wrong with that ). You picked Duibos to win, did you not?

No man faced better competition than Ali. But he lost 5 times and was lucky on the cards at least twice. He had some stuff go his way. But many think he is a top 3 ATG great at heavy, myself included.

I have Holmes and Lewis in my top 5.

No way Usyk can become a top 5 ATG at heavyweight. The competition just isn't here for him to do so and he will end his career with under 30 fights.

[MalevolentBite]

You are a good fan but a bit of a UK homer ( Not that there's anything wrong with that ). You picked Duibos to win, did you not?

No man faced better competition than Ali. But he lost 5 times and was lucky on the cards at least twice. He had some stuff go his way. But many think he is a top 3 ATG great at heavy, myself included.

I have Holmes and Lewis in my top 5.

No way Usyk can become a top 5 ATG at heavyweight. The competition just isn't here for him to do so and he will end his career with under 30 fights.

This ^^^^^^^^^

[max baer]

You are a good fan but a bit of a UK homer ( Not that there's anything wrong with that ). You picked Duibos to win, did you not?

No man faced better competition than Ali. But he lost 5 times and was lucky on the cards at least twice. He had some stuff go his way. But many think he is a top 3 ATG great at heavy, myself included.

I have Holmes and Lewis in my top 5.

No way Usyk can become a top 5 ATG at heavyweight. The competition just isn't here for him to do so and he will end his career with under 30 fights.

homer.jpg you are right i seem a uk homer! You are correct I predicted dubois would win by ko. Consideing how dubois did away with joshua it makes usyk's win even more fantastic.

[QueensburyRules]

First off, in regards to greatest vs best definition, for most people greatest is defined by accumulated accomplishments whereas best is your overall quality during your prime (how good were you). I just don't care for that, to me greatest carries more weight with it as far as a term, everyone talks about the GOAT nobody talks about the BOAT.

But I don't like that, as I prefer to debate who was actually better as opposed to who had the best resume- as resume and accomplishments are often times a result of things outside your control (this just inst in boxing, but in all sports). For example, if Usyk was the absolute very best heavyweight ever, and retired right now, he would not be the GOAT because he did not have all the great heavies available to him that others did. There is no prim Frazier, Foreman, or near prime Liston for him to beat. Essentially, no matter how great Usyk may be, he won't have the opportunity to accumulate a GOAT resume. To me thats not right, and stands in opposition to what we want to evaluate and discuss.

So, as to discuss how good Usyk actually is. He is arguably the greatest cruiserweight that ever lived- focusing only since the division has been in existence for now. This goes back nearly 50 years, and only really Holyfield can put up a challenge. I would say the same thing about him being the best in the ring for cruisers.
As far as how good he is as a heavyweight, I think you can make an argument for him being a top 5 heavyweight based on how good he is and what you see- but I'd like to see more of a sample size to make a more accurate evaluation. Which is difficult because he's up there in age and may not be able to provide that. As for now, if you had all the top 20 heavyweights ever fight each other multiple times (at their heavyweight bests) I'd probably favor him to have a winning record when all is said and done. And thats pretty good.

- - Ali, Foreman, Frazier ect weren't great when they were fighting. Dempsey and Louis were.

Sam Langford had the most HOF fights, but nobody was in the HOF when he fought them.

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