Top 50ish P4P 1960-Present

[MalevolentBite]

Lol just because you stated it doesn't make it true. Roger was literally coming off the 2nd best win of his career when he rematched Chavez.

Camacho was30 years old with a 41-0(or 40-1) record, and 5(or 4) title wins at 140 how on God's green earth is that faded hahahaha.

Camacho had one lose going into that fight but i dont base records on someone being prime. Age and the type of fights you been in can determine your prime years. But if you think that was prime Hector then fine. That still doesn't give the merit to put chavez on a teir one list for resumes. Thats my opinion.

2nd best win you are talking about the vinny fight ?

Camacho win, Taylor, Mayweather, Frankie, Greg Haugen and a few others are not better resume wins over Floyd's, manny, Hopkins and a few others you ranked below chavez.

[QueensburyRules]

You are still arguing about Chavez's place in the P4P tier. I don't care about that.

Chavez's First 48 fights were low level Mexican smokers against Tijuana taxies drivers.

I'm not even saying that Chavez's first fights were tougher or better than Holmes. Holmes may have had the rougher ride.

I really don't know what either faced in their first 48 fights. But I am certain that a Black kid from Easton Pennsylvania had a very different experience than a Mexican kid from Tijuana Mexico.

Comparing their first fights is apples and oranges. And that only applies if can get a handle on what those fights actually represent to begin with.

Please don't tell me about their resumé again. I really don't care who is higher on the list.

I just don't like bad analogies.

- - Well, Tubby Lar ain't near the natural talent of Chavez Sr, hence Chavez making mo' $$$ and mo' popular with "his People'" than Lar.

Nor is it fair to compare the disparate Boxing cultures between Mexico and the US. Not even Apples and Oranges comparison.

[Willie Pep 229]

There's too many grey areas this conversation can go but I will humor you. What's your race and nationality ? If you a white American I will continue. If you are a Mexican or another hispanic I will leave it here. I already know you are not african, or west indian, black American. Just off your tone.

I dont think you are even Hispanic. I just think you are a white American honestly. The way you brought up race / nationality out of no where makes me assume you are a white American maybe 40-50 years of age.

It is about culture not race. Learn the difference.

[SCtrojansbaby]

Camacho had one lose going into that fight but i dont base records on someone being prime. Age and the type of fights you been in can determine your prime years. But if you think that was prime Hector then fine. That still doesn't give the merit to put chavez on a teir one list for resumes. Thats my opinion.

2nd best win you are talking about the vinny fight ?

Camacho win, Taylor, Mayweather, Frankie, Greg Haugen and a few others are not better resume wins over Floyd's, manny, Hopkins and a few others you ranked below chavez.

Camacho
Ramirez
Rosario
R.Mayweather
R.Mayweather
Haugen
Lockridge
Taylor
Randall

Going up in weight to fight Pernell to a draw is a feather in his cap

Castillo and Laporte are also really solid wins

Is a tier 1 resume in line with Roy Ali Monzon and Leonard

and yes Paz is without a doubt the 2nd best win of R.Mayweather's career which is why its ridiculous to say he was faded when he rematched Chavez. Can you at least admit that?

[MalevolentBite]

Camacho
Ramirez
Rosario
R.Mayweather
R.Mayweather
Haugen
Lockridge
Taylor
Randall

Going up in weight to fight Pernell to a draw is a feather in his cap

Castillo and Laporte are also really solid wins

Is a tier 1 resume in line with Roy Ali Monzon and Leonard

and yes Paz is without a doubt the 2nd best win of R.Mayweather's career which is why its ridiculous to say he was faded when he rematched Chavez. Can you at least admit that?

we both know don king and them robbed frankie randell.

I personally dont agree but I can respect your reasoning for supporting your opinion. Trust me. I am the one in the minority. Most ppl would put chavez high on most list. I just dont consider his resume top tier one. Top teir talent ? Yes. Top teir 140lbs. Yes. Resume and P4P Top 5 idk. Him over Hopkins, Hagler, Duran, Mayweather and Pacquiao dont sit right for me.

As for Roger. Roger looked great against Vinny. he was the favorite to win. The Ref allowed Vinny to get dirty and he had alot of energy. I still dont considered that his prime, you can have a great win against an limited figher outside of your prime. But I definitely know his career really started to fade after 2nd chavez fight but ok that can doesn't take anything away from chavez he did well. I can say objective his resume over is is pretty lacking its not an amazing run of elite fighters like Pacquiao ( i am not a fan boy), Mayweather, Hopkins.

I would be happy with chavez being #1 in teir 2.

the rest of the top teir I can't say anything cause it's clear cut. Roy Jones was avoided but during his prime Roy probably was unbeatable.

[MalevolentBite]

It is about culture not race. Learn the difference.

You were the one who mentioned race first. Then why bring up race then ? Just keep it about culture. Larry holms is an American. Keep it just like that. Once you bring up the fact he's black you made it something other than boxing because I live in Pennsylvania. Let me tell you something since you were the one who brought up race. Easton is basically 80% white. All the areas outside of philadelphia and Pittsburgh is called Pennsyltucky. Civil rights didn't happen until the 60s and 70s-80 ( in the south, small towns). Now type in sun down towns in Pennsylvania. Easton will pop up for racism. That man moved there in the 50s. Let's not compare cultures of two people you can't relate too. You are not Mexican so bringing up tijuana aint got nothing to do with you. And your damn sure aint black. I am both. I rather be poor in Mexico ( yes its bad) but atleast I dont have to worry about being legally subjugated by the color of my skin while being an American citizen. So please keep it on boxing. You dont know how it feels to travel through states with a green book so you dont end up lynched. You dont know how it feels to have to order food through the back door because your black. You dont know how it feels to be black and serve in a segregate platoon and die for a country that hates you. So just stop it. Don't mention anything about the culture of Mexicans or black American unless you are one your self and you aint cuz aint nobody trying to compare different groups that had to live under oppression. None of chavez family got lynched by other Mexicans because he was brown and Larry never had to worry about drugs or the cartel. They both had different obstacles in life. Now keep it on boxing.

[MalevolentBite]

Willie Pep is something else. If he would had kept it just on boxing. He would had won. We both know chavez is an all time great. I Was just debating his place but like most wyte americans black people stay in their mind rent free. Once he started to talk about race, he laid down his own trap and put him self in it. Hes not Mexican, black or even live in Pennsylvania. Why bring up race then reneg and state he was talking about culture lol. Black is not a culture lol. Black American ( FBA), Africans, west Indians all have their own culture. However black Americans are Americans. Their culture is a sub culture of American culture thats highly related to southern American culture thats also a sub culture. You had no reason to bring up Mexicans and living in Mexico. You are not Mexican, nor are you black. You have no idea of what being either of those are. You probably read books but you are ignorant.

[QueensburyRules]

we both know don king and them robbed frankie randell.

I personally dont agree but I can respect your reasoning for supporting your opinion. Trust me. I am the one in the minority. Most ppl would put chavez high on most list. I just dont consider his resume top tier one. Top teir talent ? Yes. Top teir 140lbs. Yes. Resume and P4P Top 5 idk. Him over Hopkins, Hagler, Duran, Mayweather and Pacquiao dont sit right for me.

As for Roger. Roger looked great against Vinny. he was the favorite to win. The Ref allowed Vinny to get dirty and he had alot of energy. I still dont considered that his prime, you can have a great win against an limited figher outside of your prime. But I definitely know his career really started to fade after 2nd chavez fight but ok that can doesn't take anything away from chavez he did well. I can say objective his resume over is is pretty lacking its not an amazing run of elite fighters like Pacquiao ( i am not a fan boy), Mayweather, Hopkins.

I would be happy with chavez being #1 in teir 2.

the rest of the top teir I can't say anything cause it's clear cut. Roy Jones was avoided but during his prime Roy probably was unbeatable.

- - Chavez was never a quitting sissy crybaby like Poppy.

Sheesh!!!

[MalevolentBite]

- - Chavez was never a quitting sissy crybaby like Poppy.

Sheesh!!!

I agree lol.

[Malvado]

Long post, sorry in advance:

I am quite a Chavez Sr fan, not going to argue that he took a lot of unnecessary fights, nor that he has the best resume around, less being a top 10. Think fight wise, he accomplished less than Pacquiao, Duran Leonard, Mayweather Jr and etc.

I wasn't around when he fought, but I did check the majority of his fights, his resume is fitting one for a All Time Great. I also view him as the greatest light Welterweight based on his record. If he had stopped taking stay busy fights and not gradually faded due to prior excessive activity and drug addictions during his run at Light Welterweight. Think he could had been fighting longer at lightweight and accomplished a bit more.

He was sensational to watch, he was a textbook pressure fighter that was great at cutting the ring, varied his punch placement, and had great upper body movement as defense, using active head movement with a static defense, his natural granite chin was just a plus for him, a natural attribute that benefitted him unlike Jose Luis Castillo who tried to replicate his style like Juan Manuel Marquez tried with Ricardo Lopez.

Chavez Sr had thumping punching power that could had finished the fight if he had taken more risks at finishing his opponent, but he opted for steady work broke which eventually broke down his opponents. He also had absurd stamina, often averaging over 40-60 punches thrown per round all the way in some fights. He often in incorporated high-altitude training into his preparation for fights.


Accomplishments:
- First Mexican three division champion from super featherweight to super lightweight. - 87 Consecutive wins
-Undefeated for 13 years and 11 months.
- 27 undefeated title fights and 36 total championship fights
-3 years as the N.1 fighter in the P4P rankings from 1990 to 1992.
- Boxer of the year in 1987 up to 1990
- 136,274 spectators in Stadio Azteca in his fight with Greg Haugen.
-Two Hall Of Famer wins over Rosario and Camacho. Though Ramirez might be included soon.


Notable former and current champions he beat:
Rafael Limon (Out of his prime)
Juan Laporte
Rocky Lockridge
Roger Mayweather X2
Edwin Rosario
Jose Luis Ramirez
Sammy Fuentes
Meldrick Taylor X2
Lonnie Smith
Hector Camacho
Greg Haugen
Frankie Randall (Had 4-3 for Randall in the scorecard, winning 7th and 8th before the accidental headbutt.)
Tony Lopez
Joey Gamache

Notable ranked contenders he beat:
Alberto de las Mercedes Cortes
Ruben Castillo
John Duplessis
Terrence Ali
Rodolfo Aguilar
Angel Hernandez
Kyung-Duk Ahn
Mario Martinez

Martinez had knocked-out Spanish Roberto Castañón top contender and Filipino former world champion Rolando Navarrete in 1984 before fighting Chavez Sr. He also had quite a controversial losses to both Roger Mayweather and Azumah Nelson, Outworking Nelson and downing him at the end of the fight, Nelson corrected the fight by beating Martinez by late TKO in the last round (12) in a quite competitive rematch.

Draws:
Pernell Whitaker
Angel Miguel Gonzalez

Both world champions, though Whitaker should had earned the win, Chavez Sr had moved up at 147, testing the waters despite already having noticeably milage having fought 87+ fights and having drug addictions. His conditioning was affected aswell moving up, as he started to diminish in activity and reflexes after round 4 and 6, whenever he to close in, Whitaker replied with a uppercut or punch combinations. 8-4, having outlanded Chavez significantly.

Losses:
Frankie Randall
Oscar De La Hoya X2
Kostya Tszyu
Willy Wise
Grover Wiley

4 out 6 being world champions, 2 being journeymen fighting him out of his prime. Chavez Sr turned then clock around against De La Hoya in the rematch, putting a quite competitive fight early, but despite winning the 8th round, he got caught with a big shot at the end, where his corner pulled him out as he said he couldn't continue, despite that he claims that he didn't give up.