10 Most Historically Important Boxers?

[Marchegiano]

I guess it was in a neighboring thread. But no, I do not believe Theogenes had 1500 fights without a loss. In fact, the quote I originally read in some book or other said only 1200 fights and wins. I do not believe he even had 1500 or 1200 fights, period, let alone winning that many. I don't know what the source is on this guy, but it has to come from a hundred fathers. I don't trust that. It makes Fleischer look like a Rhodes scholar with all his only second hand opinions.

Using Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is probably the right one. Theogenes was a hella fighter, idolized in his own time, and further mythologized after his death by fans who missed the good ol' days. Occam's razor, lads. Look it up if you haven't heard of it.

What does anyone know about the equipment used then?

It was me and you misread the post or missed the point.

Nat Fleischer's second hand knowledge has **** all nothing to do with his plagiarism or fan fiction

Likewise, Pausanias, the source, and myself are not claiming Theaganese did fight 1200 fights anymore than either of us are telling you Apollo is real. We're relating what was believed.


Here's the point; if all authors were given the same lack of criticism I am asked to give Nat then there's no contest, the unbelievable feats of ancients win.



So on one hand, yeah, thanks for proving it. On the other, nah dog, rhodes scholar this D.

[Anomalocaris]

No mate, born in 1970, they might have a different name but I cannot recall.

Age is a ****.

[Mr Mitts]

It was me and you misread the post or missed the point.

Nat Fleischer's second hand knowledge has **** all nothing to do with his plagiarism or fan fiction

Likewise, Pausanias, the source, and myself are not claiming Theaganese did fight 1200 fights anymore than either of us are telling you Apollo is real. We're relating what was believed.


Here's the point; if all authors were given the same lack of criticism I am asked to give Nat then there's no contest, the unbelievable feats of ancients win.



So on one hand, yeah, thanks for proving it. On the other, nah dog, rhodes scholar this D.

It is easy to miss a point when it is hard to find one.

[Bronson66]

1. Muhammad Ali - The most important athlete of all-time, period. One of the most important non-politicians in history.

2. Joe Louis - The first African-American to be an icon in America; was a symbol of fighting **** Germany; changed perceptions of Black people worldwide

3. Jack Johnson - Broke the color barrier of the HW division; highest paid man in sports in his age.

4. Jack Dempey - the 2nd most important athlete of sports initial "Golden Age"

5. Joe Gans - 1st Black champion

6. John L. Sullivan - the first "man who beat the man"

7. Mike Tyson - The last boxer to be considered "the baddest man on the planet"

8. Manny Pacquaio = brought the dawn of the "international superstar"

9. Sugar Ray Robinson - The GOAT

10. Roberto Duran - the greatest fighter of the past 50 years & brought about the dawn of the Latino superstar.

I think Corbett should be there, certainly in front of Tyson.Another for consideration Armstrong,but still a fine list!

[QueensburyRules]

I guess it was in a neighboring thread. But no, I do not believe Theogenes had 1500 fights without a loss. In fact, the quote I originally read in some book or other said only 1200 fights and wins. I do not believe he even had 1500 or 1200 fights, period, let alone winning that many. I don't know what the source is on this guy, but it has to come from a hundred fathers. I don't trust that. It makes Fleischer look like a Rhodes scholar with all his only second hand opinions.

Using Occam's razor, the simplest explanation is probably the right one. Theogenes was a hella fighter, idolized in his own time, and further mythologized after his death by fans who missed the good ol' days. Occam's razor, lads. Look it up if you haven't heard of it.

What does anyone know about the equipment used then?

- - Spiked Cestus was quite popular for a while.

[solidman]

Yes Corbett should be there. Definitely Jack Johnson because he was a defensive genius.

[Mr Mitts]

- - Spiked Cestus was quite popular for a while.

Ah. And indeed, like so the fighters were gloved in the drawing accompanying the article I saw which I now remember was in a children's encyclopedia set decades ago. They may have gotten their eras mixed, or just didn't care. It would seem impossible to win a large number of fights undefeated--with the body wear and tear those mitts would mete out-- or even to live very long.

Surely it must have been the artist's personal touch that depicted the contestants seated on granite blocks facing each other and partially chained with knees touching, and rather long spikes too. I don't know if anything like that ever happened, though I am sure worse has.

[djtmal]

The ten most important fighters; based on their impact on the fight game.

1. Jack Dempsey
2. Joe Louis
3. Muhammad Ali
4. John L. Sullivan
5. James J. Corbett
6. Jack Johnson
7. Sugar Ray Leonard
8. Mike Tyson
9. Lennox Lewis
10. Rocky Marciano

A very short explanation:

1. Dempsey: A new explosive style created the first million dollar gate; ushered in the Golden Age of Sport.

2. Louis: Taught 'white society' to embrace the athletic prowess of the Black man.

3. Ali: The triumph of the individual fighter over the system.

4. Sullivan: America's first sports hero; they legitimized the fight game around him.

5. Corbett: Learn the martial art of boxing or don't expect to succeed. Thugs no longer need apply.

6. Johnson: Made (for better or worst) prize fighting part of the national consciousness.

7. Leonard: Brought about economic parity for the little guys.

8. Tyson: There is no such thing as bad press.

9. Lewis: Taught America to embrace a new international domination of the game.

10. Marciano: The definitive white hope; for the first television generation he kept white audiences interested in the game.



P.S. #11 Primo Carnera: first "marketed" fighter; not necessarily a good thing but still important to the game.

Solid post

[Marchegiano]

It is easy to miss a point when it is hard to find one.

Don't let that stop you from announcing the twist in your panties.



The cestus you and Queen are talking about are about 500 years removed from Theo. It has nothing to do with why his 1200 wins is an unbelievable feat. I have a thread covering ancient equipment if you're genuinely interested.


The 1200 is what it is on the surface, so deep into the world of improbable it is unbelievable. Basic statistics and math.

The lottery system and soft mitts of Theo's era along with the size of participation and history of the sport being only about 200 years deep by then. As an Hellenic sport anyway, all sometimes start to get reader to think maybe it is possible

But, we do actually know, not think, this is propaganda by the ancient who came after Theo and before Pausanias and his Descriptions of Greece (the source).

Theaganese was disqualified from a competition.

So even if he did beat up 1200, which is, you know, mathematically insane, we know they do not count his DQs as losses.




And again, the point is you only bark against ridiculous historical bull**** when it doesn't come from Nat Fleischer.

[Anomalocaris]

So much of popular history is utter bollocks.

For example Nero and Caligula.

By the standards of the time they were no better or worse than most Roman Emperors.

Smear campaigns written by their enemies long after their death means nothing.

Livia was another

As for who I think was the greatest man who held absolute power in history, look no further than the humble Stoic Marcus Aurelius.

Who when going through Rome in triumphs always hired a bloke to whisper in his ear -

'You are only a man.'