One thing Marciano was great at

[Slugfester]

Both the LaStarza and ****ell fights were attrition fights,imo.

Lastarza took an early lead,and Rocky changed tactics and began firing more to the body slowing Rollie down.In the last couple of rounds of the fight Marciano had an almost stationary target , and was landing with flush shots.but Lastarza was still on his feet when the fight was stopped.

Marciano fought a particularly dirty fight against ****ell and said his best punches did not seem to affect ****ell until late on.

Bottom line, Marciano wore them both down,that is the definition of attrition imo.

Because Marciano had some early kos over bozos doesn't mean he didn't require rounds of applying punishment to get the stoppage against better men.

He wore Moore down, he set a pace Louis could not keep up with after a promising start and ,once Louis' legs went he was toast.
Layne was belaboured around his soft body until his hands began to drop and Marciano ,who was basically a superior version of Layne in every department then switched his attacks to the head.

Walcott was systematically pressured under a non stop attack until he began retreating to the ropes to save his old legs and resorting to an old ploy of his, using the ropes as leverage to come off them with a shot.
Charles was worn to a frazzle.
These were all attrition fights.



Stats that do not take into account the quality of the opposition are imo, not just misleading ,but utterly meaningless

Marciano had a good chin,"vaunted?",the two best punchers he fought dropped him.
What he had was remarkable powers of recovery,and that imo, is mainly down to his superb conditioning.

How many massive punchers did Rocky face to show this vaunted chin against?

What nobody has seen fit to mention as really relevant is not size but AGE.

Louis was 37.Walcott was 38.Moore according to his Mother was 41,Charles was younger at 33 but past prime with nearly a 100 fights on his clock, fighting in a weight class that was not his ideal one.
All these men's best days were behind them.
Rocky wasn't generally a one punch ko artist because his delivery technique was just so,so and his accuracy was poor, ko's over class men did not usually come until he had reduced his opponent almost to a walk.
Stamina ? Yes excellent stamina,but wouldn't you expect him to outlast men so much older?

Marciano's conditioning was his essence,it meant that he could throw ceaseless punches with the same velocity all the way through a fight.
Many opponents stated they were hit harder by other fighters.Moore,Charles,Louis,Layne,[ this one surprises me,]Lastarza,****ell,
But several of them also said, but not so often ,or with so many punches.

NB Marciano did not ko Wilson.Wilson was forced to retire with a badly gashed eye.
.

A 4 rd fight cannot be one of attrition IMO. Neither can a 5 rounder. Not gradual enough. You have to be withstanding meaningful return fire, too, in my evaluation of the word applied to boxing. Those two were just not tough enough fights. Rock has to be pushed past the normal limits in a fight for it to be an attrition fight. It is not enough that the fight is a long one or that people get tired--everyone gets tired in a long fight.. I named the 4 fights where Rock was put through hell. Getting the other man tired is not enough. It was a foregone conclusion that fat Cockell would wear down. I guess I might relent on the 2nd LaStarza fight, if anywhere; borderline though.

Yes, I was well aware of the discrepancy of opposition between early and late opponents in Rock's lineup. I didn't mention it for two reasons: time and length constraints and leaving it for others to find and exploit. I knew someone would find it and point it out, and I should have known it would be you, for which I welcome you. Another point I expected you to hit (which you did obliquely) is that many fighters destined to be champions make easy mincemeat of early opponents. Gene Fullmer (not a big puncher, but an attrition fighter if there ever was one) KOd something like 15 of his first n16 opponents, if I remember correctly.

There is a discrepancy between early and late opposition in every career. Rock's is no different. What is different is knocking ALL of the early opposition out. Rock would have been very crude at that point but was still able to finish all those jobs in what became his normal fashion. He did not wear those fighters down--he overwhelmed them and took their spirits away rapidly. They didn't have time to be worn down, or in some cases even have their spirits stolen. They didn't feel a thing.

You can call the post useless (a predictable outcome) but it puts all the numbers concerning Rock together in one place for easy access and highlights his danger early as well as late to underscore a boxing urban myth. The fact remains. He did not usually wear people down and then KO them. That was reserved for the better fighters on his resume. Everyone had more trouble with Walcott than with Lee Epperson. That too is normal.

It is noteworthy that Walcott gave Rocky both his toughest fight and perhaps his easiest.

Length constraints enter...

P.S. I find it strange that LaStarza is on Marciano's Wikipedia record but Marciano is not on LaStarza's.

[Slugfester]

Nah. After watching Marciano/LaStarza II again, I have to still say it was not an attrition fight, unless any fight is an attrition fight, which in a sense they are, since some wear is expected in every fight and is the only reasonable expectation. Every fighter's durability is tested in any fight that lasts a while. That doesn't make it an attrition fight, except in the sense that every fight is.

It was a normal fight in every way, not a big war. It was even slow paced for the first 6 heats. Marciano changed one gear in the seventh and finally got into high gear in the 9th. Everything normal. Marciano's durability and stamina not even tested. He had no reason to be tired or stretched.

Of course Marciano was an attrition fighter. That is beyond question. So then, is every fight of his an attrition fight? Not to me.

Something called an attrition fight is just that, not a fight with normal wear and tear. Outside of winning, just being able to last becomes a major factor in the fight for both contestants and their fans, because there is no question about what is easily visible. The durability and survival abilities of both men are fully tested, at least in my definition of attrition fight. The parameters of durability are stretched to their limits. It tests the degree of wastage both men can endure, not just one of them.

[Ivich]

A 4 rd fight cannot be one of attrition IMO. Neither can a 5 rounder. Not gradual enough. You have to be withstanding meaningful return fire, too, in my evaluation of the word applied to boxing. Those two were just not tough enough fights. Rock has to be pushed past the normal limits in a fight for it to be an attrition fight. It is not enough that the fight is a long one or that people get tired--everyone gets tired in a long fight.. I named the 4 fights where Rock was put through hell. Getting the other man tired is not enough. It was a foregone conclusion that fat Cockell would wear down. I guess I might relent on the 2nd LaStarza fight, if anywhere; borderline though.

Yes, I was well aware of the discrepancy of opposition between early and late opponents in Rock's lineup. I didn't mention it for two reasons: time and length constraints and leaving it for others to find and exploit. I knew someone would find it and point it out, and I should have known it would be you, for which I welcome you. Another point I expected you to hit (which you did obliquely) is that many fighters destined to be champions make easy mincemeat of early opponents. Gene Fullmer (not a big puncher, but an attrition fighter if there ever was one) KOd something like 15 of his first n16 opponents, if I remember correctly.

There is a discrepancy between early and late opposition in every career. Rock's is no different. What is different is knocking ALL of the early opposition out. Rock would have been very crude at that point but was still able to finish all those jobs in what became his normal fashion. He did not wear those fighters down--he overwhelmed them and took their spirits away rapidly. They didn't have time to be worn down, or in some cases even have their spirits stolen. They didn't feel a thing.

You can call the post useless (a predictable outcome) but it puts all the numbers concerning Rock together in one place for easy access and highlights his danger early as well as late to underscore a boxing urban myth. The fact remains. He did not usually wear people down and then KO them. That was reserved for the better fighters on his resume. Everyone had more trouble with Walcott than with Lee Epperson. That too is normal.

It is noteworthy that Walcott gave Rocky both his toughest fight and perhaps his easiest.

Length constraints enter...

P.S. I find it strange that LaStarza is on Marciano's Wikipedia record but Marciano is not on LaStarza's.

Marciano had about 20 setups in his first 25 fights and 15 of those wins were tko's he didnt knock them out.
I never mentioned the word USELESS.
I never said all his fights were attrition fights either.
You agree Marciano was an attrition puncher ,that was my point.
A major factor in his wins over top men was their age,you didn't address that. Nor did you address the lack of top ****ers on his resume.
By top men I am referring to Louis,Walcott,Charles and Moore.
I think prime Louis cuts Marciano to bits,and I'd give younger versions of Charles and Walcott decent chances of beating him .
The fact that you made the post is irrelevant I would have replied exactly the same who ever made it.

[Ivich]

I'm not so taken by size. From its inception to now weight divisions are really a superfluous thing. An idea devised as a logical means to duck grown into a false equivalency that claims fairness.

There is no period where smaller guys are losing to larger guys en-mass and so a division is created that allows said smaller foes to shine. There is only the repetition of what we have seen at "bridgerweight". The claim smaller guys are having a hard time and so this new division or divisions will allow them an avenue to display their skills. Meanwhile said smaller guys said new division was meant to save from said larger men continue to fight for and win the titles of the larger division.

We could have had reach divisions, speed divisions, ring size divisions, etc. We have weight divisions and pretend weight is far more important than the other two absolutely vital ingredients for the physics of force only because once upon a time a man claimed to be a champion within a weight range and that man never thought to try the same BS with arm length or any other logical claim to fairness.

F=MA

But in boxing M is more important than A. M and dividing by M saves lives. A, unimportant. Fools with a lot of A just get to brag about it, they don't have to fight anyone else with a lot of A at any point in their career if they don't want to. They will have to fight in equal Ms though. Ain't no existence or even a call for any form of measuring, rating, or dividing based on A, but that M though, that's a killer. That M can get you the favor period, this thread is case-in-point. What's the argument against Marciano? All weight? 100% about mass? That's how important M is, someone should phone science and let them know how much more important M is to the sum in the equation M times A = Sum



So, yes, I'd challenge the idea behind weight divisions in the first place. You guys would tell me today a SWW would be slaughtered by a CW if I posted that fantasy fight but abouts the 150s fighting and beating abouts the 200s is not unheard of in the era before scheduled ends.

You guys likewise would treat me like I'm talking crazy if I suggested speed is as deadly as mass using any character as representatives rather than the words. If I suggested Manny has as much chance of killing you with a punch as Wlad you'd laugh at me.


I think I've made my point pretty clear with some nice examples but I want to clarify something. This is not a small/speed vs large/mass argument I mean to bring. I used speed as my main vehicle to highlight how hyper important boxing pretends mass is and how much boxing ignores other aspects of even a simple thing like power let alone the entirety the ballet of physics that is a fight.

No one ever talks about speed in relation to power, even though speed is as important as weight. Conversely weight alone can get you the nod by fans and pundits in would-be matchups that are meant to consider not just the entire ballet of physics but also the characters of the men themselves.


It's bull**** and I'll take a step toward being aggressive with this stance by saying something like "I don't think Marciano makes rounds with SHW" is disappointingly intellectually lazy. Especially coming from smart fellows like Bundana


Weight, speed, trajectory, all equal in delivering force. Am I talking about throwing a punch? Taking a step? Blocking? Slipping? ... Yes, the answer is yes, I am. All of it.

Kinematic chains, I'm literally still the only poster I have ever seen post about them because mass is so important, it matters more than speed, trajectory, or even the third ****ing law of physics for Christ's sake. Get me?




There is a ****-ton more to consider beyond "Him bigger doe" Or even "Him a LOT bigger doe", and Marciano worked very hard for what he had. To just devalue that with intellectually lazy drivel is, well, a disappointment.


It is absolutely conceivable Marciano could use his stamina alone to beat all HWs who came after, and, only equally as intellectually lazy as writing him off based on size alone, and, the only reason anyone is so comfortable being so ****** about size is because no one challenges the notion. It's ******, what you said was ******, all the respect in the world, Bun is not a ****** person at all, but that is a ****** stance and it's about time someone taught you guys just how ****** you sound when you mentally jerkoff over weight.

If weight /size is not an important factor in fights;
Why are there tale of the tape stats in fights.
Why are there weight divisions?
Why are there weigh ins?
Why are fighters fined if they fail to make a stipulated weight?
Why have some lost their titles because of this?
Why were light welter,light middle,Cruiser classes etc invented?
Why did Spinks Holyfield,Byrd,Ellis,Usyk etc add weight when they moved up to challenge heavyweights?
Why have we not seen a man under 200lbs on top of the heavyweight division since1978?

LAZY DRIVEL?

How about this?

"From its inception to now weight divisions are really a superfluous thing."

That is imo , just about the most asinine remark I have ever heard as regards boxing!

If Artur Beterbiev fought Tyson Fury what would the odds on Fury be?

[billeau2]

If weight /size is not an important factor in fights;
Why are there tale of the tape stats in fights.
Why are there weight divisions?
Why are there weigh ins?
Why are fighters fined if they fail to make a stipulated weight?
Why have some lost their titles because of this?
Why were light welter,light middle,Cruiser classes etc invented?
Why did Spinks Holyfield,Byrd,Ellis,Usyk etc add weight when they moved up to challenge heavyweights?
Why have we not seen a man under 200lbs on top of the heavyweight division since1978?

LAZY DRIVEL?

How about this?

"From its inception to now weight divisions are really a superfluous thing."

That is imo , just about the most asinine remark I have ever heard as regards boxing!

If Artur Beterbiev fought Tyson Fury what would the odds on Fury be?

I think there is a major misunderstanding at work in looking at weight, that causes many posters to sort of talk around this point without knowing this is happening. I am not referring to anyone in particular and the reason I am bringing this up is because I see truth in more than one post that seem to contradict each other on the subject.

First: Lets look at the entire time span of Western Boxing derived from Figg. Lets say we are talkin roughly 350 years, or so? Give, or take? If we cut off from the 1920's when punching started to develop into a new approach, that gives is give, or take, 100 years, or so? Leaving a good chunk of time prior to when different dynamics gradually went out of style.

When Boxing matches were fought for long periods of time, weight was a factor but, it was less important. In a big ring, with bare knuckles, or smaller gloves, other factors are just more important. But when boxing changes weight simply became more and more important. I have mentioned the reasons many times before. You basically transmit force differently, almost entirely differently! Weight and heft adds to power considerably when gloves get bigger.

So... weight does matter, alas, it is a factor that has become more important over time... Not in intervals, but when power changed from direct hand to opponent transmission to swinging a padded glove into a target like a sledge hammer.

What makes me pause and shake me noggin is when it is never mentioned how things changed so much in the sport, which brings me to my second exhortation. Is it possible for a fighter to overcome weight? Yes, to a degree... It is harder now. Weight differential changes considerably from differences accounting under 200 pounds and over versus 200 pounds and under. One way to see this is with long distance runners. if weight was always in proportion to work performed, you could have a big 200 pount plus long distance runner because, despite the extra weight, the extra muscles would make up the difference... but it does not work that way. Big men can sprint, but long distance running is something requiring a certain weight make up.

What this means to boxing is: a guy coming up from 120 to 135 imo has a big change because of weight. Perhaps because of demographics (man more skilled men competing in one weight class than another), because of the per capita difference in 15 pounds for someone who has less total weight, or just because of weight and size under 200 pounds, this guy will imo have a harder time than a heavyweight. With heavyweights many factors play into total weight...

So does weight matter? Yes it certainly does. How much does it matter? all things considered, including the average weight of a heavyweight, the average weight of champions, I believe that while average weight has increased, the efficacy of this affect has not become a trend. We are kind of left looking at individuals, more than any principle that tells us how much weight makes a difference. But by looking back historically we can get an idea of how weight classes became more important... they were always important, but they became more important.

[Ivich]

I think there is a major misunderstanding at work in looking at weight, that causes many posters to sort of talk around this point without knowing this is happening. I am not referring to anyone in particular and the reason I am bringing this up is because I see truth in more than one post that seem to contradict each other on the subject.

First: Lets look at the entire time span of Western Boxing derived from Figg. Lets say we are talkin roughly 350 years, or so? Give, or take? If we cut off from the 1920's when punching started to develop into a new approach, that gives is give, or take, 100 years, or so? Leaving a good chunk of time prior to when different dynamics gradually went out of style.

When Boxing matches were fought for long periods of time, weight was a factor but, it was less important. In a big ring, with bare knuckles, or smaller gloves, other factors are just more important. But when boxing changes weight simply became more and more important. I have mentioned the reasons many times before. You basically transmit force differently, almost entirely differently! Weight and heft adds to power considerably when gloves get bigger.

So... weight does matter, alas, it is a factor that has become more important over time... Not in intervals, but when power changed from direct hand to opponent transmission to swinging a padded glove into a target like a sledge hammer.

What makes me pause and shake me noggin is when it is never mentioned how things changed so much in the sport, which brings me to my second exhortation. Is it possible for a fighter to overcome weight? Yes, to a degree... It is harder now. Weight differential changes considerably from differences accounting under 200 pounds and over versus 200 pounds and under. One way to see this is with long distance runners. if weight was always in proportion to work performed, you could have a big 200 pount plus long distance runner because, despite the extra weight, the extra muscles would make up the difference... but it does not work that way. Big men can sprint, but long distance running is something requiring a certain weight make up.

What this means to boxing is: a guy coming up from 120 to 135 imo has a big change because of weight. Perhaps because of demographics (man more skilled men competing in one weight class than another), because of the per capita difference in 15 pounds for someone who has less total weight, or just because of weight and size under 200 pounds, this guy will imo have a harder time than a heavyweight. With heavyweights many factors play into total weight...

So does weight matter? Yes it certainly does. How much does it matter? all things considered, including the average weight of a heavyweight, the average weight of champions, I believe that while average weight has increased, the efficacy of this affect has not become a trend. We are kind of left looking at individuals, more than any principle that tells us how much weight makes a difference. But by looking back historically we can get an idea of how weight classes became more important... they were always important, but they became more important.

How much does it matter?
Well Haye beat Valuev whilst conceding 99lbs to him .
1.He beat him because imo .he was a much better fighter.
2.At 217 lbs he was big enough to beat anyone. IF he was good enough .
Tony Bellew was a light heavyweight with the height to add lbs on his frame and tackle the cruisers and he did ,adding 22lbs to his body to do so.But ,when he went after David Haye, he added a further 16lbs to his frame.If he it felt it wasn't necessary he surely would not have done so.
Added weight can help you absorb punches better,CAN not WILL,it can also sometimes increase punching power SOMETIMES.

Back to Valuev he would imo, beat men far more talented than himself but smaller, just because of the size differential.

So for anyone to say or imply weight is not a significant factor in prizefighting is imo ridiculous.

[Slugfester]

Marciano had about 20 setups in his first 25 fights and 15 of those wins were tko's he didnt knock them out.
I never mentioned the word USELESS.
I never said all his fights were attrition fights either.
You agree Marciano was an attrition puncher ,that was my point.
A major factor in his wins over top men was their age,you didn't address that. Nor did you address the lack of top ****ers on his resume.
By top men I am referring to Louis,Walcott,Charles and Moore.
I think prime Louis cuts Marciano to bits,and I'd give younger versions of Charles and Walcott decent chances of beating him .
The fact that you made the post is irrelevant I would have replied exactly the same who ever made it.

Yes, Marciano was the purest attrition fighter. He always turns it into a contest of durability for the other man. I didn't address those other concerns you mention because the thread is about what Rocky does well.

[Ivich]

Yes, Marciano was the purest attrition fighter. He always turns it into a contest of durability for the other man. I didn't address those other concerns you mention because the thread is about what Rocky does well.

Okay ,then we are not at variance,and it was me who wandered off piste.

[QueensburyRules]

How much does it matter?
Well Haye beat Valuev whilst conceding 99lbs to him .
1.He beat him because imo .he was a much better fighter.
2.At 217 lbs he was big enough to beat anyone. IF he was good enough .
Tony Bellew was a light heavyweight with the height to add lbs on his frame and tackle the cruisers and he did ,adding 22lbs to his body to do so.But ,when he went after David Haye, he added a further 16lbs to his frame.If it felt it wasn't necessary he surely would not have done so.
Added weight can help you absorb punches better,CAN not WILL,it can also sometimes increase punching power SOMETIMES.

Back to Valuev he would imo, beat men far more talented than himself but smaller, just because of the size differential.

So for anyone to say or imply weight is not a significant factor in prizefighting is imo ridiculous.

- - -PLZ, PinkyToe Haye hospitalized with rope burns on his back whilst running like a cat with a lit sparkler shoved up his arrears in creaking Valuev's last fight before his acromegaly surgery to save his life. He won the derelict 3 fight DKing contract is what he actually won.

The poor dear "cleaned up" the division by fighting former retired and always disgraced Quiet Man Ruiz, and then Oddly who held him off for 3 rds without throwing a single punch, and then Wlad where he spent most of his time bicycling in reverse when not dropped to his knees face buried in Wlad crotch that only a snail snarfer like you could stomach...

[Ivich]

- - -PLZ, PinkyToe Haye hospitalized with rope burns on his back whilst running like a cat with a lit sparkler shoved up his arrears in creaking Valuev's last fight before his acromegaly surgery to save his life. He won the derelict 3 fight DKing contract is what he actually won.

The poor dear "cleaned up" the division by fighting former retired and always disgraced Quiet Man Ruiz, and then Oddly who held him off for 3 rds without throwing a single punch, and then Wlad where he spent most of his time bicycling in reverse when not dropped to his knees face buried in Wlad crotch that only a snail snarfer like you could stomach...

And this had to do with the thread exactly what?