The reason Joe Louis should be studied above all fighters

[DooGee#33]

IMO Jack Blackburn was the best trainer of them all. He helped Louis develop the greatest left hand the sport has ever seen. Ray Arcel was one of the few who witnessed Blackburn's sessions with Louis in private.
That was when the real work was done. No conisidence that Joe was possibly the best finisher as well. As Sugar Ray Robinson once said "if a guy even slipped with Joe he was finished".

[them_apples]

Good information which I think does not negate my premise. If the camera does not pick something up, then there is nothing in that spot to restore. You can make whatever is already there look better, but you will not be able to restore details that were never recorded, at any fps.. Colorization itself helps bring out more detail, all of which is false detail, however. For instance, there is no information on the black & white film which tells the color of the guy's coat at ringside, to my knowledge. It still makes clarity better. Higher fps does provide more detail, such as the 60 fps that sporting events are filmed at so slowed motion is available. If they filmed something at 30 fps and then tried slow motion, it would look like an old fight again, jerky.

The only thing I am talking about here is a simple if/then proposition: If a detail was not picked up by the camera, then there is nowhere to find it on the original film. I do not stand on all my statements with equal weight because intuitive science and logic is highly risky. If someone can show where I am wrong, I would appreciate that, because then I would learn something without having to rummage and read for three days.

There is nothing for a human brain to pick up. But the patterns an AI can register and compare are a lot higher or will be higher than a human brain. It could certainly predict the real movements just by watching all the Louis fights available and making sense of it all for us.

[them_apples]

Size... You seem to think bigger is better. I am merely pointing out that correlations between size and ability have not formed a new trend... It may yet, but as of this point in boxing history, SOME of the best heavyweights are big, others are smaller.

And Usk and Byrd are not near the finishers of men who you call "shufflers." that should be important to think about.

Yes, but we are talking defense, movement, and guard. Usyk and Byrd are far better the Louis here. No comparison.

There has not been a heavyweight champ Louis size in 30+ years. In his prime he was 195- 205 LBS. [/QUOTE]

you are so far off the mark I only wish you knew. Genuinely.in your mind you deem Louis’ defense worse because his hands are lower. But because blackburn knows more about boxing than you, and taught him to fight like that - then its obviously got purpose to it yeah?

Louis is very technically proficient. His stance requires a lower “guard” because the best punches are thrown from a low slung guard. The shoulders can dangle free and remain relaxed, poised to strike. These dumb new fighters with high guards don’t realize how tight that makes your arms and saps your power and speed. Louis rear hand parrys shots and is held right in front of his face. This stance allows for a very hard and snappy jab. This was fundamental stuff developed a long time ago. You can see gene tunney keeping those slow slung shoulders relaxed as well. Then on top of this Louis has been taught how to ride punches, a lost art. But the most brilliant part of all: Louis stance. He cuts and hard angle and puts more weight in his rear leg leaning ever so slightly back, tucks his chin behind his shoulder. As long as he keeps that angle facing his oponent he is extremely hard to hit based on the angle leaving no areas of the body to hit, and the hidden far slung stance with his parrying hand in front of his face. By pivoting on his back foot he can easily keep this angle facing his oponent. This is why Louis, could so easily stalk oponents who would find themselves backing up, without having to do anything Louis is defending himself just based on his stance. Ali demonstrates it to Roy Jones, and Jones said “he stands in such a way that there isn’t anything to hit”.

his punch technique is perfect because its based on leverage.

his Balance is perfect, he is always in position to punch

his body’s balance is perfect as well, with a thicker set of legs and a light muscular upperbody.

All his punches have been carefully curated in front of a mirror to have no tell. A lost art. You can call him stiff and robotic (mostly because of the film) he is actually a poker bodied individual who has mastered the art of subtlety.

his jab has perfect design to it, fired with a low relaxed shoulder allowing for a high velocity explosion, straight as an arrow, thrown strictly from the shoulder without any body movement whatsoever and turned over in the shoulder only at the very end (keeping the shot as straight as possible).

the list of things Louis does well is astronomical I will have to stop somewhere

you can’t say this isn’t well thought out boxing by someone who spent their entire life studying pugilism. A guy roger mayweather says was the greatest trainer of all time.

[them_apples]

QUOTE=billeau2;n32028158]

Like Usyk? Like Wilder? Like Byrd? Extinct like that? Of the three men vying for top heavyweight billing, ONE of them is a giant heavyweight.

You mistake economy of motion with sluggard footwork. A common mistake made when evaluating (IRONY ALERT) Perhaps the TWO best finishers in heavyweight history (Liston and Louis)... So slow lol. Lewis won because with his footwork and all he knew he would catch his man in 15 rounds.

So basically all those quick footed fighters could not finish an opponent like the "slow" deliberate guys, one of whom did not even cut the ring! (Liston).

Come on Bill!

Usyk is a moving South paw. He is nothing like Joe Louis!

Byrd is a defensive fighter and a southpaw. He is nothing like Joe Louis either!


And their guards are higher.


Wilder is 6'7" tall. And he is sloppy.

You compare these three to shuffling Joe Louis?! Two do not fit and the other is about 6" in height and reach taller / longer.

I am going to pretend I did not read your reply.
[/QUOTE]

Another thing thats funny is you talk about high guards because thats what the boxers today are doing, but Vitali actually utilized a low oldschool guard didn’t he? Vitai is certainly better than Wlad, regardless of resume I can simply tell from watching. He would knock his brother out.

[Bundana]

There is nothing for a human brain to pick up. But the patterns an AI can register and compare are a lot higher or will be higher than a human brain. It could certainly predict the real movements just by watching all the Louis fights available and making sense of it all for us.

I'm not an expert on AI, but the way it works with making old, jerky films look smoother... isn't that by attempting to restore something that has been damaged or missed by the old camera? And I can't see, how this has anything to do with how much Louis footage AI has been "watching". But, then again, I could be wrong!

So can someone enlighten me, on how this is supposed to work?

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=them_apples;n32028970]




Come on Bill!

Usyk is a moving South paw. He is nothing like Joe Louis!

Byrd is a defensive fighter and a southpaw. He is nothing like Joe Louis either!


And their guards are higher.


Wilder is 6'7" tall. And he is sloppy.

You compare these three to shuffling Joe Louis?! Two do not fit and the other is about 6" in height and reach taller / longer.

I am going to pretend I did not read your reply.

Another thing thats funny is you talk about high guards because thats what the boxers today are doing, but Vitali actually utilized a low oldschool guard didn�t he? Vitai is certainly better than Wlad, regardless of resume I can simply tell from watching. He would knock his brother out.

Do you watch boxing? Vitali had good feet, excellent punch anticipation, and used his height to to stay out of the other man's reach. Thing Louis did not do.

I suggest you look at his round by round score cards, and his punch stats. You will see dominance.

Like Ali he used his height and feet to avoid the incoming . VK was seldom hit by a combination.


Back to Joe Louis who is the topic of this thread. He was in fact outboxed vs. the best he fought in Schmeling, Conn, Walcott, Charles, and Marcino. Add up the score cards in these fights and you will see. Watch the films.

All of the cruiserweight seized guys or in Conn's case a light heavyweight had success on Louis while boxing. That is what I'm saying and it's the truth.

[QueensburyRules]

- - AI gonna be watching our micro movements that nobody can see, esp in the toilet so when AI has their annual picnic, potty humor will be flying thru the air.

[Dr. Z]

Yes, but we are talking defense, movement, and guard. Usyk and Byrd are far better the Louis here. No comparison.

There has not been a heavyweight champ Louis size in 30+ years. In his prime he was 195- 205 LBS.

you are so far off the mark I only wish you knew. Genuinely.in your mind you deem Louis� defense worse because his hands are lower. But because blackburn knows more about boxing than you, and taught him to fight like that - then its obviously got purpose to it yeah?

The flaws on Louis defense are there to see. Come on. I see Louis has slow and predictable shuffling feet, a low guard, and a sack your face forward type if stance. It there on film. Did Blackburn teach Louis this? Or was is just how Louis was?

Louis is lucky most of his completion was not very good, and had great power and offensive skills .


Louis fought but two back men for his 26 title defenses, zero eastern european guys, and had trouble with international talent in his title matches did he not? Asking you.

Boxing heavyweight boxing has been dominated by these groups since the 1960's. And Louis had trouble with them. Hmmm...


But Louis sure clobbered most of his bum of the month guys. Expect two of them knock him down. ( Tony Galento and Buddy Bear ) And Jimmy Braddock knocked Louis down. Talking facts and defense.

Chat with me. You will find I know my stuff. I can learn from you.

[Ivich]

you are so far off the mark I only wish you knew. Genuinely.in your mind you deem Louis� defense worse because his hands are lower. But because blackburn knows more about boxing than you, and taught him to fight like that - then its obviously got purpose to it yeah?

The flaws on Louis defense are there to see. Come on. I see Louis has slow and predictable shuffling feet, a low guard, and a sack your face forward type if stance. It there on film. Did Blackburn teach Louis this? Or was is just how Louis was?

Louis is lucky most of his completion was not very good, and had great power and offensive skills .


Louis fought but two back men for his 26 title defenses, zero eastern european guys, and had trouble with international talent in his title matches did he not? Asking you.

Boxing heavyweight boxing has been dominated by these groups since the 1960's. And Louis had trouble with them. Hmmm...


But Louis sure clobbered most of his bum of the month guys. Expect two of them knock him down. ( Tony Galento and Buddy Bear ) And Jimmy Braddock knocked Louis down. Talking facts and defense.

Chat with me. You will find I know my stuff. I can learn from you.

What a fatuously ****** post!

Which Eastern European Heavies were ranked during Louis' reign?
Louis made 25 defences ,19 of them were against Ring ranked heavyweights another was against the reigning Light Heavyweight champion.
Name another heavyweight champion that did that?
Galento was ranked the number 1 contender.
Baer was ranked number 6 and number 7. Neither were Bum Of The Month challengers both were ko'd by Louis.

[Dr. Z]

Originally posted by Dr. Z View Post
you are so far off the mark I only wish you knew. Genuinely.in your mind you deem Louis� defense worse because his hands are lower. But because blackburn knows more about boxing than you, and taught him to fight like that - then its obviously got purpose to it yeah?

The flaws on Louis defense are there to see. Come on. I see Louis has slow and predictable shuffling feet, a low guard, and a sack your face forward type if stance. It there on film. Did Blackburn teach Louis this? Or was is just how Louis was?

Louis is lucky most of his completion was not very good, and had great power and offensive skills .


Louis fought but two back men for his 26 title defenses, zero eastern european guys, and had trouble with international talent in his title matches did he not? Asking you.

Boxing heavyweight boxing has been dominated by these groups since the 1960's. And Louis had trouble with them. Hmmm...


But Louis sure clobbered most of his bum of the month guys. Expect two of them knock him down. ( Tony Galento and Buddy Bear ) And Jimmy Braddock knocked Louis down. Talking facts and defense.

QUOTE=Ivich;n32029055]
What a fatuously ****** post!

Which Eastern European Heavies were ranked during Louis' reign?
Louis made 25 defences ,19 of them were against Ring ranked heavyweights another was against the reigning Light Heavyweight champion.
Name another heavyweight champion that did that?
Galento was ranked the number 1 contender.
Baer was ranked number 6 and number 7. Neither were Bum Of The Month challengers both were ko'd by Louis.

[/QUOTE]

You lie about me and ignore the facts. What a ****** man you are. Look up bum if the most guys, you will see the name I am talking about. Buddy Bear who lost 7 times. Prior to facing Louis, Bubby Baer lost five times! Scarasm. DUH.


What about #1 ring magazine ranked, heavyweight Betttina. Oh that's right, Louis did not fight any southpaws either. What about fighting him in 1943, 1942, or 1941? Nope. I said never.

The Ring Magazine's Annual Ratings: 1944

As selected by The Ring magazine in the February 1945 issue.

*Title frozen for the duration of World War II

Joe Louis*, Champion Melio Bettina Tami Mauriello Curtis Sheppard Joe Baksi Lee Oma Lee Q Murray Jack London Elmer Ray Al Hart