"Punching On the Break"

[Stuart_boxer]

One thing that's obvious if you watch Jack Johnson's fights as compared to a modern fight such as Hatton vs Mayweather is that referee's in Johnson's day and also in the 50's, 60's and even 70's would allow far more wrestling in close in boxing matches.

With this in mind how dirty was punching on the break seen as at the beginning of the 20th century?

There's modern punching on the break where the ref separates two fighters and one of them punches on the separation.

Then there's the old school fights where wrestling is essentially part of the strategy. Even looking at a fight as recent as Duran Vs Leonard there was a significant amount of wrestling. Is it only dirty if a fighter throws a punch when the referee is trying to separate or is it dirty if a guy clinches then pushes the guy away firing off a punch?

[billeau2]

One thing that's obvious if you watch Jack Johnson's fights as compared to a modern fight such as Hatton vs Mayweather is that referee's in Johnson's day and also in the 50's, 60's and even 70's would allow far more wrestling in close in boxing matches.

With this in mind how dirty was punching on the break seen as at the beginning of the 20th century?

There's modern punching on the break where the ref separates two fighters and one of them punches on the separation.

Then there's the old school fights where wrestling is essentially part of the strategy. Even looking at a fight as recent as Duran Vs Leonard there was a significant amount of wrestling. Is it only dirty if a fighter throws a punch when the referee is trying to separate or is it dirty if a guy clinches then pushes the guy away firing off a punch?

In preclassical boxing, up until around Dempsey or so, a little before, you had distinct ranges of combat based on the Western fencing system. This system, as instructed by teachers like James Figg, were an amalgamation of various fencing schools, what they all had in common was what some call "the three foot rule" that exists in many blade cultures... The idea is simple: If you and I are facing off with ohhh lets say 3 foot razorblades known as katanas, we will be very mindful of stepping into a range where one of us can be reached, naturally by the other swordsman. that distance is roughly swordlength, or about three feet.

You will see fighters of old, as they juke and jive, feint, or step into that zone to launch an attack... Conversely, what often happens is when people come to "gripes." This is the distance where the grapple takes place. Yes a lot of fighting took place here, again there is a reason: human beings get the most pure feedback tactilely... When i feel your weight against me, I do not need to process a visual cue, or hear something, I am experiencing your weight and responding right away. So this zone was used by great fighters like Johnson. JOhnson would stop punches this way...

Conventions changed, and so did things like punching off the grapple... there is a great tape of Corbett showing Tunney how to legit trap a man's one gloved hand and serve him up with the other... It was fair game. Punching from the grapple also was easier on the hands BTW. Why risk breaking a hand when I can feel exactly where your head is going and want to hit the target accurately? But ultimately a lot of the combat efficiacy of boxing was lost when it became a game of swinging mufflers (gloves) with big muscle groups, instead of using movements, the grapple, and very accurate hitting to beat an opponent.

[Willie Pep 229]

One thing that's obvious if you watch Jack Johnson's fights as compared to a modern fight such as Hatton vs Mayweather is that referee's in Johnson's day and also in the 50's, 60's and even 70's would allow far more wrestling in close in boxing matches.

With this in mind how dirty was punching on the break seen as at the beginning of the 20th century?

There's modern punching on the break where the ref separates two fighters and one of them punches on the separation.

Then there's the old school fights where wrestling is essentially part of the strategy. Even looking at a fight as recent as Duran Vs Leonard there was a significant amount of wrestling. Is it only dirty if a fighter throws a punch when the referee is trying to separate or is it dirty if a guy clinches then pushes the guy away firing off a punch?

I don't have the dept of knowledge to answer your question completely.

I would suggest watching two fights.

Jack Johnson-Jess Wiilard 1915

Jack Dempsey-Jess Willard 1919

In the first first you will suffer through 19 rounds of clinches, some are clashes, many are deliberate grabs.

You can evaluate for yourself the fairness of the called 'breaks.'

The second fight, is just the first round. The fighters go to great lenghts to show they are not grabbing/holding.

You will see a completely different Willard. It's almost as if some agreement had been reached before the fight and both fighters were trying to show they were not holding.

So I'm not sure if it has a date attached to it. It may just be a fight by fight thing, and not particuliar to an era.

[billeau2]

I don't have the dept of knowledge to answer your question completely.

I would suggest watching two fights.

Jack Johnson-Jess Wiilard 1915

Jack Dempsey-Jess Willard 1919

In the first first you will suffer through 19 rounds of clinches, some are clashes, many are deliberate grabs.

You can evaluate for yourself the fairness of the called 'breaks.'

The second fight, is just the first round. The fighters go to great lenghts to show they are not grabbing/holding.

You will see a completely different Willard. It's almost as if some agreement had been reached before the fight and both fighters were trying to show they were not holding.

So I'm not sure if it has a date attached to it. It may just be a fight by fight thing, and not particuliar to an era.

I did not understand Willard's response to Dempsey... that is until I came across a yellow jackets nest with the wrong spray. Schmuck me had picked up the "flying insect spray" and not the "hornet spray." For a precious half a minute, or so that seemed like an eternity I had an experience that made me completely emphasize with Cowboy Jess...

[kara]

I don't have the dept of knowledge to answer your question completely.

I would suggest watching two fights.

Jack Johnson-Jess Wiilard 1915

Jack Dempsey-Jess Willard 1919

In the first first you will suffer through 19 rounds of clinches, some are clashes, many are deliberate grabs.

You can evaluate for yourself the fairness of the called 'breaks.'

The second fight, is just the first round. The fighters go to great lenghts to show they are not grabbing/holding.

You will see a completely different Willard. It's almost as if some agreement had been reached before the fight and both fighters were trying to show they were not holding.

So I'm not sure if it has a date attached to it. It may just be a fight by fight thing, and not particuliar to an era.

Not a lot of footage out there to properly assess if someone is underrated or not.

[Ivich]

One thing that's obvious if you watch Jack Johnson's fights as compared to a modern fight such as Hatton vs Mayweather is that referee's in Johnson's day and also in the 50's, 60's and even 70's would allow far more wrestling in close in boxing matches.

With this in mind how dirty was punching on the break seen as at the beginning of the 20th century?

There's modern punching on the break where the ref separates two fighters and one of them punches on the separation.

Then there's the old school fights where wrestling is essentially part of the strategy. Even looking at a fight as recent as Duran Vs Leonard there was a significant amount of wrestling. Is it only dirty if a fighter throws a punch when the referee is trying to separate or is it dirty if a guy clinches then pushes the guy away firing off a punch?

The old timers would mutually agree with the referee concerning hitting during the breaks.Tommy Burns stated he regretted to agreeing to the "everyman for himself," policy against Johnson.Burns was considered an excellent infighter and doubtless thought it would be to his advantage,
The UK's Henry Cooper liked to let a left hook go just as the referee called "step back".
When Jim Corbett fought Dominick McCaffrey he stipulated no clinching would be allowed ,he knew what suited him and what didn't.
Dempsey was prone to hitting as the referee called break.
Don ****ell said Marciano," went a bit deaf ,"when the third man called out break.

[Stuart_boxer]

Thanks for the replies. Some interesting responses.

One thing that no one's commented on so far is that even in 1980 the ref seemed to let a significant enough amount of wrestling go in Leonard vs Duran as compared to Hatton Vs Mayweather about 30 years later.

Though the ref did let Mayweather frame with his forearm to set up a right cross which happened about 10 times.

[Ivich]

Thanks for the replies. Some interesting responses.

One thing that no one's commented on so far is that even in 1980 the ref seemed to let a significant enough amount of wrestling go in Leonard vs Duran as compared to Hatton Vs Mayweather about 30 years later.

Though the ref did let Mayweather frame with his forearm to set up a right cross which happened about 10 times.

Ray Arcel and Freddie Brown, Duran's trainers asked the referee to "let the fighters fight",which he duly did,