Jack Johnson v GunBoat Smith 1912?

[Ivich]

Regardless if they were controversial, they went into the history books as wins. Smith was a rangy, crafty fighter who wasn’t an easy day for anyone. He beat Willard who KO’d Johnson. Is it so hard to believe Smith could have legitimately knocked down and buzzed Johnson in an exhibition or sparring session?

Its not hard for me at all,but ,unlike Dr Z, I attach no importance to it,just as I don't about Toxie Hall left hooking Marciano to the canvas in a spar and Charlie Goldman sending Rocky for a shower.
Unlike DR Z too I have read multiple accounts of the Smith spar and they are very contradictory.None of them claim Smith knocked Johnson silly which Z does!
Johnson sparred with a further 3 partners after the incident,so how buzzed would he have been?

Smith was an easy day for quite few fighters.
Including
Dempsey 2 rds ko Smith floored 9 times.
Fulton , Smith kod in 3 & 7rds.
Jack Dillon
Kid Norfolk
Jim Coffey Smith ko'd in4rds .
Bob Martin, Smith ko'd in 3 rds
Wills,Smith ko'd in1 rd .
Harry Greb, Smith ko'd in 1rd

Here's a question for you, in what year was Smith ever the standout contender for Johnson?.
Smith was floored by Carpentier170lbs who, when asked if he would fight Johnson said," he is too big for me" .
Smith was kod by 170lbs Greb,Harry was no puncher.

[Ivich]

Where do you come up with this? Smith defeated Willard, something Jack couldn't do. He also had wins over Langford, Flynn, Moran, Blackburn (a fighter who also allegedly got the best of Johnson in sparring).

Johnson was 37 and overweight when he fought Willard,in spite of which he was in front after 20rds, he just ran out of gas.

Smith was 26 when he decisioned Willard.How do you think Willard would do against a 26 years old Johnson?
You do know Blackburn was outweighed by30lbs?
Despite Z trying to pretend Smith was Johnson's nemesis Smith was beaten by ordinary fighters.
Geyer 13-5-2
Miller 9-8-2
Barry 20-10-6
Roberts 21-5-1
Anderson 13-5-9
Farmer 32-11-7
McCormack 15-4-2
Krovasky33-14-16
Farmer 32-11-20
Walker7-3-6
Bell 35 -14- 2
Stewart 23-10-4
Miller 9-6-2

Why would Johnson need to avoid him?
Ever hear of an offer by a promoter for Johnson to defend against Smith?
Ever read a quote by Smith challenging Johnson?

[GhostofDempsey]

Johnson was 37 and overweight when he fought Willard,in spite of which he was in front after 20rds, he just ran out of gas.

Smith was 26 when he decisioned Willard.How do you think Willard would do against a 26 years old Johnson?
You do know Blackburn was outweighed by30lbs?
Despite Z trying to pretend Smith was Johnson's nemesis Smith was beaten by ordinary fighters.
Geyer 13-5-2
Miller 9-8-2
Barry 20-10-6
Roberts 21-5-1
Anderson 13-5-9
Farmer 32-11-7
McCormack 15-4-2
Krovasky33-14-16
Farmer 32-11-20
Walker7-3-6
Bell 35 -14- 2
Stewart 23-10-4
Miller 9-6-2

Why would Johnson need to avoid him?
Ever hear of an offer by a promoter for Johnson to defend against Smith?
Ever read a quote by Smith challenging Johnson?

Jeffries was 6 years retired and had to lose close to a 100 pounds when he fought Johnson, yet Johnson fans celebrate that win as if he beat a prime Jeffries. Johnson also beat a 19 year old McVey with less than 10 fights, a still novice Jeannette with less than 20 fights, and a young middleweight version of Langford who was outweighed by upwards of 40 pounds while standing 6" shorter. Yet somehow he is still given full credit for all of those wins as if he beat all of them at their best, which he didn't.

[Ivich]

Jeffries was 6 years retired and had to lose close to a 100 pounds when he fought Johnson, yet Johnson fans celebrate that win as if he beat a prime Jeffries. Johnson also beat a 19 year old McVey with less than 10 fights, a still novice Jeannette with less than 20 fights, and a young middleweight version of Langford who was outweighed by upwards of 40 pounds while standing 6" shorter. Yet somehow he is still given full credit for all of those wins as if he beat all of them at their best, which he didn't.

I don't celebrate Johnson beating Jeffries.Nobody knows what either Johnson or Langford weighed for their fight,we have been over this before, "guestimates were that Langford was about 156lbs,Johnson about 185/187bsThat is not upwards of 40lbs!

No Johnson did not beat them at their best , they improved and added weight.And so did he!
Johnson was at his peak when he fought Jeffries for which fight he was 208lbs! That's an increase of 23lbs Clay Moyle says Langford best weight was about 175/180lbs, you have the book so you know this,that's an increase of about 20lbs so that evens them out on weight.Langford wad also the more experienced fighter with more contests,again we have been over this before!
Next to Z you are the foremost hater of Johnson on this forum ,[Queensbury Fool runs you a close 3rd,] but unlike that moron, you also post decent stuff . Now would you like to return to Johnson v Smith,and perhaps answer my questions?

Why would Johnson need to avoid him?
Ever hear of an offer by a promoter for Johnson to defend against Smith?
Ever read a quote by Smith challenging Johnson?

[GhostofDempsey]

I don't celebrate Johnson beating Jeffries.Nobody knows what either Johnson or Langford weighed for their fight,we have been over this before, "guestimates were that Langford was about 156lbs,Johnson about 185/187bsThat is not upwards of 40lbs!

No Johnson did not beat them at their best , they improved and added weight.And so did he!
Johnson was at his peak when he fought Jeffries for which fight he was 208lbs! That's an increase of 23lbs Clay Moyle says Langford best weight was about 175/180lbs, you have the book so you know this,that's an increase of about 20lbs so that evens them out on weight.Langford wad also the more experienced fighter with more contests,again we have been over this before!
Next to Z you are the foremost hater of Johnson on this forum ,[Queensbury Fool runs you a close 3rd,] but unlike that moron, you also post decent stuff . Now would you like to return to Johnson v Smith,and perhaps answer my questions?

Why would Johnson need to avoid him?
Ever hear of an offer by a promoter for Johnson to defend against Smith?
Ever read a quote by Smith challenging Johnson?

There are several claims of Langford and Johnson's weight differences ranging from just over 30 pounds to as much as 50 pounds. So if NOBODY knows, then you certainly don't know that it wasn't upwards of 40 pounds.

I never said I hated Johnson, but I do find him highly overrated. That is my opinion and I provide evidence as to why I find him overrated, it's not an emotional stance.

Have you read of reputable offers by a promoter for Vitali to fight the pugs that knocked him down in sparring? This goes both ways.

[Ivich]

There are several claims of Langford and Johnson's weight differences ranging from just over 30 pounds to as much as 50 pounds. So if NOBODY knows, then you certainly don't know that it wasn't upwards of 40 pounds.

I never said I hated Johnson, but I do find him highly overrated. That is my opinion and I provide evidence as to why I find him overrated, it's not an emotional stance.

Have you read of reputable offers by a promoter for Vitali to fight the pugs that knocked him down in sparring? This goes both ways.

Well shall we both go by their weight at respective times,would that be alright?

Johnson and Langford fought on the 26th of April 1906.
Johnson scaled 184lbs on19th of Feb 1907 for a fight with Peter Felix.

He scaled 184lbs for a fight against Bill Lang a month later, on the 4th of March.
On the 17th of September 1907 Johnson weighed185lbs for a bout with Sailor Burke that's 19 months after the Langford fight/

Given that the Langford fight was over a year and a half earlier,I'd say 185lbs would be a pretty good questimate for his weight against Langford ,do you agree?

Langford scaled 155lbs for a fight with Young Peter Jackson on the 26 th of May 1905 that's eleven months earlier,so,unless you think Langford lost weight in that time , 156lbs is again a pretty decent guestimate, do you agree?
That's a twenty pounds disparity.


Obviously Vitali was never going to fight either Walker or Butler,I made that thread solely to expose the hypocrisy of Dr Z..