Henry Armstrong vs Roberto Duran fight outcomes

[them_apples]

Sir, what are you talking about? Do you know what a fact is? It is not a fact that "this bout would be fought in Armstrong's style all night," it is a speculation.

Ok lets back up a bit.

facts basically donâÃÂÂ� �€Â ™t exist when it comes to boxing outcomes and speculation. So YES you are right. If you want to fixate on that statement then so be it, but don’t avoid my points.

I have never seen an Armstrong fight that was fought outside, nor have I seen anyone capable of stopping him from getting inside.

I have never seen Duran willfully try and disengage inside fighting. I really couldnâà‚€Â ™t picture it happening either. “Willfully disengage” an oponent that is aggressively making it aj inside fight. To picture otherwise is to picture Duran making a strong attempt to create distance from Armstrong. I can’t picture this. Duran almost only comes forward. He does have pockets to catch Armstrong coming in though. Which is why I don’t totally know who would win this.

while not a fact, 2 clear and very valid observations that lead me to believe it would be a fight that was fought inside the entire night.

Joe Frazier fought in a similar style, there was only one man who prevented him from getting inside and he did this via cheating and that was George Foreman. You aren†™t allowed to shove your oponents off balance and then hit them - but George did it and got away with it (nobody was strong enough to do that anyways)

[them_apples]

This forum needs to update its software or something. I apologize for the terrible typing.

[Dr. Z]

If I had to bet the house on it I'd go with Duran, but it would be a close and competitive fight. I think Duran's slight height advantage and better defensive skills put him over the top. Henry was best fighting on the inside. He was a rough and often dirty fighter charging in with head, shoulders and elbows and delivering his share of low blows. I don't think he would be able to rough house Duran without getting it right back from a bigger, faster opponent. It's no easy fight for Duran, but I think he pulls of a UD with a couple rounds to spare.

It a great match up! If Duran can keep is head in the game and not quit he can take a close decision. Armstrong was special form 1936-1940. Armstrong actually had the better reach of the two. Duran is a little bigger. The fight would have to be at light weight. It would be something to see!

[Willie Pep 229]

Ok lets back up a bit.

facts basically don���������������¢������������������������������ � �t exist when it comes to boxing outcomes and speculation. So YES you are right. If you want to fixate on that statement then so be it, but don���¢��������t avoid my points.

I have never seen an Armstrong fight that was fought outside, nor have I seen anyone capable of stopping him from getting inside.

I have never seen Duran willfully try and disengage inside fighting. I really couldn���������������¢��������������������������� � ����t picture it happening either. �Willfully disengage� an oponent that is aggressively making it aj inside fight. To picture otherwise is to picture Duran making a strong attempt to create distance from Armstrong. I can�t picture this. Duran almost only comes forward. He does have pockets to catch Armstrong coming in though. Which is why I don�t totally know who would win this.

while not a fact, 2 clear and very valid observations that lead me to believe it would be a fight that was fought inside the entire night.

Joe Frazier fought in a similar style, there was only one man who prevented him from getting inside and he did this via cheating and that was George Foreman. You aren�������¢����������������t allowed to shove your oponents off balance and then hit them - but George did it and got away with it (nobody was strong enough to do that anyways)

Not sure I agree that Foreman was breaking the rules (with Frazier.)

Using the Nevada Unarmed Combat Rules as a touchstone, Rule #19 (NAC 467.675) states: "Pushing an opponent about the ring or into the ropes." (Constiutes a foul.)

Foreman was indeed extending his arms to push Frazier off him and was then grabbing the smaller Frazier, by the shoulders, and turning him.

It is possible to see Foreman's actions as a foul, but I would argue by the literal interpretation of the rule Foreman was not 'pushing Frazier around the ring,' but instead was pushing Frazier off him, stopping his forward momentum. But at no time, that I can remember, does Foreman move forward attempting to push Frazier around.

If there was an infraction I would argue that it was Foreman grabbing and turning Frazier out of postition, but not that he was "pushing him around around the ring."

There seems no rule, that I can find, that directly addresses whether a fighter can try to turn his opponent by grabbing his shoulders.

I would say that in the MQ tradition, grabbing and turning your opponent is not 'boxing.'

But then again prize fighting isn't boxing; boxing is a martial art deployed to win a prize fight.

There are several accepted prize fighting methods/tactics that are consider fouls in amateur boxing but not in a prize fight. E.g. In amateur boxing a fighter is not allowed to duck under a punch but is expected to block a punch with defensive parrying skills, but one is not allowed to duck to avoid it. A tactic that is common to prize fighting.

Not really sure how I feel about Foreman's tactic.

[Slugfester]

Not sure I agree that Foreman was breaking the rules (with Frazier.)

Using the Nevada Unarmed Combat Rules as a touchstone, Rule #19 (NAC 467.675) states: "Pushing an opponent about the ring or into the ropes." (Constiutes a foul.)

Foreman was indeed extending his arms to push Frazier off him and was then grabbing the smaller Frazier, by the shoulders, and turning him.

It is possible to see Foreman's actions as a foul, but I would argue by the literal interpretation of the rule Foreman was not 'pushing Frazier around the ring,' but instead was pushing Frazier off him, stopping his forward momentum. But at no time, that I can remember, does Foreman move forward attempting to push Frazier around.

If there was an infraction I would argue that it was Foreman grabbing and turning Frazier out of postition, but not that he was "pushing him around around the ring."

There seems no rule, that I can find, that directly addresses whether a fighter can try to turn his opponent by grabbing his shoulders.

I would say that in the MQ tradition, grabbing and turning your opponent is not 'boxing.'

But then again prize fighting isn't boxing; boxing is a martial art deployed to win a prize fight.

There are several accepted prize fighting methods/tactics that are consider fouls in amateur boxing but not in a prize fight. E.g. In amateur boxing a fighter is not allowed to duck under a punch but is expected to block a punch with defensive parrying skills, but one is not allowed to duck to avoid it. A tactic that is common to prize fighting.

Not really sure how I feel about Foreman's tactic.

I sure did not know that. That kind of information is why I am on here. Thanks.

[Slugfester]

well theres a couple thigs to consider, going forward footage is improving of older fighters like Hank. he's usually in lower framed footage - meaning any small movements won't get picked up, only big ones. AI is improving this though.

Second, from a professional bout standpoint, we need to get away from the idea that "any glove touching ones head" counts as a punch. if a shot has absolutely nothing on it, in a professional bout - it's nothing to make note of at all. It's the amateur style "touch wars" that has people thinking these connect ratios mean everything, when well placed effectively set up punches can dismantle a fighter. If hank smothers his opponent and slides off 2 hooks while sinking a brutal left to the ribs in while they are vulnerable - this is called ring savvy. Hank was a dangerous guy to even hit sometimes because he made you miss so bad.

Now Duran has a much more polished outside game, and more punching power - absolutely flawless punching technique - but the fact remains based on Durans tendencies, that this bout would be fought in Armstrongs style all night. While Duran has sublime inside skills, is he better than someone who made a career out of it? that's the question.

Didn't Mickey Ward make a career of it too. But, yes, I believe Duran could swarm as well as anyone who made a career of it. Don't hold it against him that he knew how to box and knew what a guard was.

[them_apples]

Didn't Mickey Ward make a career of it too. But, yes, I believe Duran could swarm as well as anyone who made a career of it. Don't hold it against him that he knew how to box and knew what a guard was.

Ward was just a tough guy who came to fight. Armstrong had a well schooled pressure / inside style that he used relentlessly.

[them_apples]

Not sure I agree that Foreman was breaking the rules (with Frazier.)

Using the Nevada Unarmed Combat Rules as a touchstone, Rule #19 (NAC 467.675) states: "Pushing an opponent about the ring or into the ropes." (Constiutes a foul.)

Foreman was indeed extending his arms to push Frazier off him and was then grabbing the smaller Frazier, by the shoulders, and turning him.

It is possible to see Foreman's actions as a foul, but I would argue by the literal interpretation of the rule Foreman was not 'pushing Frazier around the ring,' but instead was pushing Frazier off him, stopping his forward momentum. But at no time, that I can remember, does Foreman move forward attempting to push Frazier around.

If there was an infraction I would argue that it was Foreman grabbing and turning Frazier out of postition, but not that he was "pushing him around around the ring."

There seems no rule, that I can find, that directly addresses whether a fighter can try to turn his opponent by grabbing his shoulders.

I would say that in the MQ tradition, grabbing and turning your opponent is not 'boxing.'

But then again prize fighting isn't boxing; boxing is a martial art deployed to win a prize fight.

There are several accepted prize fighting methods/tactics that are consider fouls in amateur boxing but not in a prize fight. E.g. In amateur boxing a fighter is not allowed to duck under a punch but is expected to block a punch with defensive parrying skills, but one is not allowed to duck to avoid it. A tactic that is common to prize fighting.

Not really sure how I feel about Foreman's tactic.

You make a good point, I think for the 70s that type of fighting was still acceptable. Today they might call him. George in his comeback said he had to change his style not only because he was slower, but also because the gloves were closed thumb now. Foremans style was old even for the 70s, he was an extensive grappler.

as for ducking punches in the ams, you still can. But amatuers don’t throw full committed punches with bad intentions, they throw volleys of light short punches designed to score points. Its not really feasable to duck them, just keep your hands up and eat them off the arms. The old pro style is all about timing and effective blows. To punch with any type of authority you have to follow through.

[Slugfester]

well theres a couple thigs to consider, going forward footage is improving of older fighters like Hank. he's usually in lower framed footage - meaning any small movements won't get picked up, only big ones. AI is improving this though.

Second, from a professional bout standpoint, we need to get away from the idea that "any glove touching ones head" counts as a punch. if a shot has absolutely nothing on it, in a professional bout - it's nothing to make note of at all. It's the amateur style "touch wars" that has people thinking these connect ratios mean everything, when well placed effectively set up punches can dismantle a fighter. If hank smothers his opponent and slides off 2 hooks while sinking a brutal left to the ribs in while they are vulnerable - this is called ring savvy. Hank was a dangerous guy to even hit sometimes because he made you miss so bad.

Now Duran has a much more polished outside game, and more punching power - absolutely flawless punching technique - but the fact remains based on Durans tendencies, that this bout would be fought in Armstrongs style all night. While Duran has sublime inside skills, is he better than someone who made a career out of it? that's the question.

Do you know of a specific instance where Duran succumbed to his supposed lust to brawl, when he should have been seeking a wider distance? When was this? Where? I would like to see Duran make this mistake for myself, so I can show it to all my friends and shock yhem. He would by implication be employing the wrong strategy. You claim he has a tendency to be drawn into inside brawls. This can only mean he should be doing something else. If not, he is employing his optimum strategy already. When in his career should he have boxed from the outside instead submitting to the temptation to brawl?

[them_apples]

Do you know of a specific instance where Duran succumbed to his supposed lust to brawl, when he should have been seeking a wider distance? When was this? Where? I would like to see Duran make this mistake for myself, so I can show it to all my friends and shock yhem. He would by implication be employing the wrong strategy. You claim he has a tendency to be drawn into inside brawls. This can only mean he should be doing something else. If not, he is employing his optimum strategy already. When in his career should he have boxed from the outside instead submitting to the temptation to brawl?

Yeah, Duran loved to brawl thats my point. He was a supreme brawler no doubt, but he never took a back foot even at middleweight. Its not an easy instance to come up with because there weren’t many fighters on his level. At lightweight in my honest opinion, I think he would stay in close vicinity with armstrong for most of the match - with armstrong helping this scenario play out.

I still don’t know if armstrong beats Duran, I am mostly just playing the devils advocate here because people will pick a certain fighter without much thought. But an iron chin and a+ baiting headmovement gotta amount to something. The other guys Duran was fighting werent using this.