Analyzing boxing's old model

[Bundana]

I would say amateur fights are a different experience altogether, if comparing them to professional bouts.

Surely boxers like Usyk, Loma, Rigondeaux, etc. with hundreds of amateur bouts, must have been used to the spotlight, and felt enormous pressure to win in many of the really important ones.

Are we supposed to believe, that top amateurs with hundreds of fights, including Olympic and world championship experience - suddenly get stage fright, once they step into a pro ring? And that they would benefit from starting out with a period of 10-12 fights a year, against inferior opposition - in order to get their nerves under control, before getting down to serious business? Jesus...

[Ivich]

Surely boxers like Usyk, Loma, Rigondeaux, etc. with hundreds of amateur bouts, must have been used to the spotlight, and felt enormous pressure to win in many of the really important ones.

Are we supposed to believe, that top amateurs with hundreds of fights, including Olympic and world championship experience - suddenly get stage fright, once they step into a pro ring? And that they would benefit from starting out with a period of 10-12 fights a year, against inferior opposition - in order to get their nerves under control, before getting down to serious business? Jesus...

I think both you and Apples make salient points,I've always thought those long amateur careers stood fighters in good stead when they punched for pay,.
The downward side as I see it is that many of them are already near or into their 30's when they go pro which creates pressure to move them quickly,eg Loma and Joyce.

The other negative I've seen was illustrated in Loma v Salido when body shots were called for Loma wouldn't throw them.

Amateurs rarely target the body the bouts, aren't long enough for it to pay dividends and it can become an ingrained habit.
I don't think they get stage fight, but some of the dubious tricks pros pull can take some adjusting to.

Just my thoughts.

[Bundana]

I think both you and Apples make salient points,I've always thought those long amateur careers stood fighters in good stead when they punched for pay,.
The downward side as I see it is that many of them are already near or into their 30's when they go pro which creates pressure to move them quickly,eg Loma and Joyce.

The other negative I've seen was illustrated in Loma v Salido when body shots were called for Loma wouldn't throw them.

Amateurs rarely target the body the bouts, aren't long enough for it to pay dividends and it can become an ingrained habit.
I don't think they get stage fight, but some of the dubious tricks pros pull can take some adjusting to.

Just my thoughts.

I think body punching is very much an individual thing - and not so much what you have been taught (or not taught!) in the amateurs.

Ali hardly ever punched to the body. Obviously it didn't come natural to him - maybe it's the same with Loma.

A Long-time amateur like GGG was an outstanding body puncher right from the start of his pro career. Already as an amateur, Joyce wasn't shy about punching to the body (see the Olympic final vs Yoka). And it certainly didn't take Inoue dozens of pro fights to shake the amateur habits... before he started bombing out opponents, with some of the "crispiest" body punching I have ever seen!

You are of couse right about moving long-time amateurs quickly, once they turn pro. If you're in your mid-to-late 20s, when starting punching for pay, you probably haven't got 10 prime years left in you... but if you have 300-400 amateur fights (some at the highest level) under your belt, you don't really need a lot of "learning" fights, before being thrown in against good opponents.

[Ivich]

I think body punching is very much an individual thing - and not so much what you have been taught (or not taught!) in the amateurs.

Ali hardly ever punched to the body. Obviously it didn't come natural to him - maybe it's the same with Loma.

A Long-time amateur like GGG was an outstanding body puncher right from the start of his pro career. Already as an amateur, Joyce wasn't shy about punching to the body (see the Olympic final vs Yoka). And it certainly didn't take Inoue dozens of pro fights to shake the amateur habits... before he started bombing out opponents, with some of the "crispest" body punching I have ever seen!

You are of couse right about moving long-time amateurs quickly, once they turn pro. If you're in your mid-to-late 20s, when starting punching for pay, you probably haven't got 10 prime years left in you... but if you have 300-400 amateur fights (some at the highest level) under your belt, you don't really need a lot of "learning" fights, before being thrown in against good opponents.

Good Post!

[Cash in]

No. I mean the backlash for such record padding for elite fighters would be off the scale. I mean, let's take the number 1 fighter in his division, and say he fights 12 times a year, 2 top opponents and 10 cans, these won't be normal cans, like a bad mando, but they'd be shocking, like world number 100, 200, debutants like Chavez Sr used to fight. They'd have to be terrible to have that many fights in a year. It would just be fights like that recent ridiculous Frazier Clark, (which even the fighter apologised for) fight over and over again and people would just tire of it very quickly, and fighters would not get motivated for it and be bored of it. Be no money in it for them. Different times now, top fighters aren't needing small fight pay tick overs, just big paydays and fights.

Who'd watch these fights as well? Which network would show them? Welcome to Usyk's 12th fight of the year, today he faces Tom Little. There is no market to this now. Back when fighters boxed all the time, things were different, options were limited. Now how many billions can watch movies, tv shows, sports, or play computer games any time they want? We don't need pointless fights. What boxing needs is the top guys to stop avoiding each other for any tiny reason out of fear of losing, such as Spence and Crawford, and many others. Cash in

[QueensburyRules]

No. I mean the backlash for such record padding for elite fighters would be off the scale. I mean, let's take the number 1 fighter in his division, and say he fights 12 times a year, 2 top opponents and 10 cans, these won't be normal cans, like a bad mando, but they'd be shocking, like world number 100, 200, debutants like Chavez Sr used to fight. They'd have to be terrible to have that many fights in a year. It would just be fights like that recent ridiculous Frazier Clark, (which even the fighter apologised for) fight over and over again and people would just tire of it very quickly, and fighters would not get motivated for it and be bored of it. Be no money in it for them. Different times now, top fighters aren't needing small fight pay tick overs, just big paydays and fights.

Who'd watch these fights as well? Which network would show them? Welcome to Usyk's 12th fight of the year, today he faces Tom Little. There is no market to this now. Back when fighters boxed all the time, things were different, options were limited. Now how many billions can watch movies, tv shows, sports, or play computer games any time they want? We don't need pointless fights. What boxing needs is the top guys to stop avoiding each other for any tiny reason out of fear of losing, such as Spence and Crawford, and many others. Cash in

- - Lessee, Like ol'school fighters of yore, JC like get paid making easier fights whilst he was bargaining for harder fights.

And U wanna fault him for being old school good businessman?

[Willie Pep 229]

Surely boxers like Usyk, Loma, Rigondeaux, etc. with hundreds of amateur bouts, must have been used to the spotlight, and felt enormous pressure to win in many of the really important ones.

Are we supposed to believe, that top amateurs with hundreds of fights, including Olympic and world championship experience - suddenly get stage fright, once they step into a pro ring? And that they would benefit from starting out with a period of 10-12 fights a year, against inferior opposition - in order to get their nerves under control, before getting down to serious business? Jesus...

One of the major changes that occurs from the amateur to professional jump has to do with the universe surrounding the fighter.

All things amateur, from people to events are designed to bring about a fair result.

(Yes they fail at times, but the overwhelming intention of amateur sport is to protect the athletes, both physically and politically, when they can).

It's not that the likes of Loma can't suddenly handle the focused attention of being a pro.

Certainly all Eastern European (formally commie) Nations place tremendous pressure on their "amateur" athletes to perform well or else lose it all.

(Sorry! Ya got to put big quotes around the use of the word amateur when speaking of over there.)

What's really becomes different is all the organized protection that amateur competion brings to the table suddenly disappears and two major changes occur:

1. Surrounding advisers are no longer necessarily acting to the fighter's (kid's) advantage as amateur coachs are, but instead are acting in their own self interest, e.g. managers, promoters, broadcasters, even bogus trainers suddenly appear in the kid's life.

2. The fighter suddenly finds himself fighting in a universe full of predators. In the amateurs we can count and discuss the great robbery that occured on one hand; a professional fighter walks into every fight wondering if he's going to get jobbed that night, and has so little control of his almost unregulated-unorganized surroundings.

It isn't that he suddenly gets "stage fright" as you suggest, but he is suddenly swimming in a sea full of piranhas and that becomes quite stressful.

In short fighters when they move from amateur to pro fighters suddenly find that even their own "mentors" can turn out to be predators.

That stress and lack of guidence brings down many a fighter.

For fighters the move from amateur boxing to prize fighting is a jump. Football players on the other hand never have to make that kind of sudden emotional adjustment.

The (American) football kid gets to move from pee-wee ball, to freshman ball, to high school ball, to college ball, and then to the professionals. The system stays intact with each level gained looking quite similar to the one just left behind. The pressure surely incresses but damn near all else stays the same. It is an easier climb, more emotinally stable, climb to the top. (And some of then still can't handle it.)

Fighters don't have that luxury they have to jump in one leap from an organized amateur sport into a shark tank and I believe that makes it tougher than the transition in other sport.

[QueensburyRules]

One of the major changes that occurs from the amateur to professional jump has to do with the universe surrounding the fighter.

All things amateur, from people to events are designed to bring about a fair result.

(Yes they fail at times, but the overwhelming intention of amateur sport is to protect the athletes, both physically and politically, when they can).

It's not that the likes of Loma can't suddenly handle the focused attention of being a pro.

Certainly all Eastern European (formally commie) Nations place tremendous pressure on their "amateur" athletes to perform well or else lose it all.

(Sorry! Ya got to put big quotes around the use of the word amateur when speaking of over there.)

What's really becomes different is all the organized protection that amateur competion brings to the table suddenly disappears and two major changes occur:

1. Surrounding advisers are no longer necessarily acting to the fighter's (kid's) advantage as amateur coachs are, but instead are acting in their own self interest, e.g. managers, promoters, broadcasters, even bogus trainers suddenly appear in the kid's life.

2. The fighter suddenly finds himself fighting in a universe full of predators. In the amateurs we can count and discuss the great robbery that occured on one hand; a professional fighter walks into every fight wondering if he's going to get jobbed that night, and has so little control of his almost unregulated-unorganized surroundings.

It isn't that he suddenly gets "stage fright" as you suggest, but he is suddenly swimming in a sea full of piranhas and that becomes quite stressful.

In short fighters when they move from amateur to pro fighters suddenly find that even their own "mentors" can turn out to be predators.

That stress and lack of guidence brings down many a fighter.

For fighters the move from amateur boxing to prize fighting is a jump. Football players on the other hand never have to make that kind of sudden emotional adjustment.

The (American) football kid gets to move from pee-wee ball, to freshman ball, to high school ball, to college ball, and then to the professionals. The system stays intact with each level gained looking quite similar to the one just left behind. The pressure surely incresses but damn near all else stays the same. It is an easier climb, more emotinally stable, climb to the top. (And some of then still can't handle it.)

Fighters don't have that luxury they have to jump in one leap from an organized amateur sport into a shark tank and I believe that makes it tougher than the transition in other sport.

- - Not bad, Pep, but how can the average mug understand you when he's only interested in crowing about his latest love?

[Willow The Wisp]

Some good, good posts here relating to the carried over aspects of an extensive amateur career, the skills perfected and the habits that must be unlearned, and above all the solid principle that there is no substitute for experience!
Amateur boxing US, Global, Military and intercollegiate have seen ebbs and flows, but collectively picked up following the 2nd world war, and have always served as a fine apprenticeship entering the professional ranks. Suffice to say that Lomachenko, Leon Spinks, etc. are not your typical debutants.
Only lightly touched in our conversation was the number of decorated amateurs who unfortunately didn't transfer, many leaving their best work done in the simon pure ranks.
Howard Davis, Mark Brealand and Kenny Gould spring to mind for me. Better than Good pros; but Brilliant amateurs.