Jeffries v Sullivan A Cursory Appraisal

[Willie Pep 229]

I must have inveterately undervalued Sullivan. Always I figured he was just a crude progenitor with a minimum of skill and an abundance of muscle and tough. Even seeing the matchup on the board surprised me. Imagined constraints is a frequent culprit to solution.

Did he train hard? How can you fight bouts so lengthy, or even sign for them, if you don't train much? He probably trained better than his reputation. Not many boxers have traps so developed, whether they train hard or not.

Obviously, I do not have an opinion that should matter on this match.

Ever hear the story that Muldoon got Sullivan ready for Kilraine ? -- that Sullivan was used up goods (booze) by the time Kilraine became popular.

Muldoon whipped John L into the best shape of his career - the story continues that Sullivan came to hate Muldoon. Subsequently Muldoon would not try to pull off another miracle when Corbett was ready.

[QueensburyRules]

Goddard was avoided by Sullivan. Written and openly talked about a match with Sullivan in newspaper men and known boxing scribes before he lost to Corbett in lost in September 1892. They could have meet for sure. Fact is they did not. Not that Sullivan openly ducked him. That was Peter Jackson who Goddard fight and drew in 1890

Don't let Ivich fool you, I have been handing the old man his rear for years correcting him so many times, I've lost count.

Judging by the pictures left to view, no he did Sullivan did not train very hard. He was often over weight and fat for fights. Read some or just ask. As for the match up Sullivan said Jeffries would have put it to him. It would have been a KO for Jeffries had the meet in their primes. There was talk about a match between the two, and they did spar. Thankfully it did not happen.

- - I like the story of drunk Sully going to the back of his car to pee.

Somewhere there was a lurch and Sully overboard. When the engineer found out he was missing, he slowly backed the train up until they finally caught Sully limping on the tracks worse for the wear.

[The Old LefHook]

Goddard was avoided by Sullivan. Written and openly talked about a match with Sullivan in newspaper men and known boxing scribes before he lost to Corbett in lost in September 1892. They could have meet for sure. Fact is they did not. Not that Sullivan openly ducked him. That was Peter Jackson who Goddard fight and drew in 1890

Don't let Ivich fool you, I have been handing the old man his rear for years correcting him so many times, I've lost count.

Judging by the pictures left to view, no he did Sullivan did not train very hard. He was often over weight and fat for fights. Read some or just ask. As for the match up Sullivan said Jeffries would have put it to him. It would have been a KO for Jeffries had the meet in their primes. There was talk about a match between the two, and they did spar. Thankfully it did not happen.

I see. You want me to read some, or ask. Don't fŭcking tell me to read some, palomino. I have seen the same pictures you have. Everyone has read from the same stack, if they read at all. My whole life since 12 years old I have heard and read that he was a terrible trainer and often came in overweight. I figure often does not mean always, you figure it does.

You want me to ask whether Sullivan trained or not? Hilarious. Who am I supposed to ask, you? Or maybe someone from the same old stack who is long dead? I questioned whether he was always out of shape and might have trained a little more than given credit for, since legends do grow in the hands of journalists, disgruntled trainers and drunken compatriots. Then I admitted I do not feel I know enough to make a worthwhile prediction, and you figured that was enough to make a pounce and patronize me to read some. I believe I still have enough punch left to feed you your own fŭcking teeth, palomino, if only I knew where your hidey-hole is. Over and out.

[Dr. Z]

I see. You want me to read some, or ask. Don't fŭcking tell me to read some, palomino. I have seen the same pictures you have. Everyone has read from the same stack, if they read at all. My whole life since 12 years old I have heard and read that he was a terrible trainer and often came in overweight. I figure often does not mean always, you figure it does.

You want me to ask whether Sullivan trained or not? Hilarious. Who am I supposed to ask, you? Or maybe someone from the same old stack who is long dead? I questioned whether he was always out of shape and might have trained a little more than given credit for, since legends do grow in the hands of journalists, disgruntled trainers and drunken compatriots. Then I admitted I do not feel I know enough to make a worthwhile prediction, and you figured that was enough to make a pounce and patronize me to read some. I believe I still have enough punch left to feed you your own fŭcking teeth, palomino, if only I knew where your hidey-hole is. Over and out.

No-no, you are taking this the wrong way and are letting a single preview of a fantasy fight now, ( with mistakes in it ), change your opinion. You know how he trained and have read correctly. Like you said he was a terrible trainer. I agree. You saw the photos of him in the ring. Our opinions are the same, so how about a Mea culpa?

I did not mean to patronize you. I am sorry you took it the wrong way. Sullivan is shape was in the 170's, and that is not often. He was a heavy drinker which I am sure you know.

You said,

Obviously, I do not have an opinion that should matter on this match.

I took that it seems the wrong way. But like I said, who did he beat? The 5'9" 150 pound Mitchell and the tiny Jack Burke who fought for the English Middle championship? Those two are in his best five wins! I say he did not beat the best fighters before he retired, as mostly fought small men in general, with an exception being Jake Kilrian who is among his best five wins. And he took 76 rounds to beat him.

[Ivich]

You might know this.

Didn't Fox actually give a championship belt to Kilraine (sp) for the sole reason of getting under Sullivan's skin?

I believe, but not sure, that Fox tried to sign John L to a contract and when Sullivan refused he started trying to goat Sullivan into a fight with Kilraine?

Not sure.

A second digression if you will allow me.

John L, at first, tried to force Kilraine into a glove fight and when he couldn't he started to act as if Kilraine was persona non grata.

But eventually Sullivan was forced to cave into a LPR bare knuckle fight that he really didn't want because of the newspapers/fans/Fox's belt, i.e. public announcements/propgsnda by Fox that Kilraine was the real champion?

These are questions lol - I'm hand wringing and fence sitting again because I am not sure if these statement are true.

You have any insight to Fox's motives?

You are absolutely correct.Fox was dining in a restaurant ,seeing Sullivan at another table he sent a waiter over inviting John L to join him.Sullivan took this as a peremptory summons and rejected the invitation.

Fox felt he had been snubbed and began a campaign to disparage Sullivan and build up Kilrain ,Fox commissioned belt to be made for Kilrain and amid much hullabaloo presented it to him,announcing him as the "real champion".

Sullivan's friends in reply had a belt made for John, L $10.000 was the cost and it was encrusted with diamonds.which Sullivan later pawned one by one,leaving only the belt which he eventually sold for $150.

Fox was a man who by all accounts had a histrionic respect for his own dignity and status,[some here no doubt see these traits in myself ,]Sullivan by rejecting his invitation made Fox his life long enemy.

At this stage of his career I think Kilrain would possibly have beaten Sullivan who was on the verge of physical collapse.
Sullivan , for once in his life showed some sense ,and put himself under the charge and care of William Muldoon,the great physical culturist ,wrestler, and trainer.
Muldoon performed a miracle in readying Sullivan for the battle,though Sullivan said Muldoon had the help of a baseball bat standing in readiness should he need to" persuade" John L to not break training.

In one of my books a Lady journalist visited Sullivan at his training camp and secured an interview with him.I'll dig it out when I have more time.

I'm going to the pub to listen to a singer this lunchtime.
I appreciate your post and your sense of humour.

Dr Z says who did Sullivan beat?

" But like I said, who did he beat? The 5'9" 150 pound Mitchell and the tiny Jack Burke who fought for the English Middle."

Yet he lists Mitchell as one of Corbett's 3 best wins?

How does that work?

[Dr. Z]

inion

You are absolutely correct.Fox was dining in a restaurant ,seeing Sullivan at another table he sent a waiter over inviting John L to join him.Sullivan took this as a peremptory summons and rejected the invitation.

Fox felt he had been snubbed and began a campaign to disparage Sullivan and build up Kilrain ,Fox commissioned belt to be made for Kilrain and amid much hullabaloo presented it to him,announcing him as the "real champion".

Sullivan's friends in reply had a belt made for John, L $10.000 was the cost and it was encrusted with diamonds.which Sullivan later pawned one by one,leaving only the belt which he eventually sold for $150.

Fox was a man who by all accounts had a histrionic respect for his own dignity and status,[some here no doubt see these traits in myself ,]Sullivan by rejecting his invitation made Fox his life long enemy.

At this stage of his career I think Kilrain would possibly have beaten Sullivan who was on the verge of physical collapse.
Sullivan , for once in his life showed some sense ,and put himself under the charge and care of William Muldoon,the great physical culturist ,wrestler, and trainer.
Muldoon performed a miracle in readying Sullivan for the battle,though Sullivan said Muldoon had the help of a baseball bat standing in readiness should he need to" persuade" John L to not break training.

In one of my books a Lady journalist visited Sullivan at his training camp and secured an interview with him.I'll dig it out when I have more time.

I'm going to the pub to listen to a singer this lunchtime.
I appreciate your post and your sense of humour.

Dr Z says who did Sullivan beat?

" But like I said, who did he beat? The 5'9" 150 pound Mitchell and the tiny Jack Burke who fought for the English Middle."

Yet he lists Mitchell as one of Corbett's 3 best wins?

How does that work?

No, I do not list Mitchell as Corbett's top 3 wins. Where did I say this? Link? If I said it was an error as I view Sullivan, Kilrain and Choynksi as better fighters . McCoy too. Corbett by the way has a known record of 24-4, not the box rec record you like to quote! Stop lying about it. His record is full of hall of famers fought and beaten. Besides Corbett knocked the little guy Mitchell out in three rounds. The same guy knocked Sullivan down and went 39 rounds with him.Corbett's record and wins over Kilrain and Mccaffrey shorter cleaner and better than Sullivan's. Of course he knocked Sullivan out himself. There you have it.

I did however say that Mitchell was among the best three fighters Sullivan beat. Sullivan did not fight good competition. He missed a lot of good fighters. You could say he was fat, drunk or lazy..but he misses them and his power as a man in his mid 20's and low 30's did not stand out as he took many men the distance in very short 4-6 rounds fights.

Next to the competition Jeffries beat he easily out classes the ones that Sullivan beat.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_J._Corbett