Which Statistical Data Could Shed The Most Light

[them_apples]

If anything, I think modern fighters are harder. It is the equipment, I believe. It is not my idea that boxing technique has evolved little in the last eighty years, but local arguments have convinced me of this counter-intuitive fact. The assortment of training apparatus is what has explosively evolved in boxing, rather than boxing technique. Certain apparatus are even for specific muscles. We have more available than a medicine ball, some kettleweights and an axe these days. The result is overall harder bodies, I believe. What else can it be, softer bodies? I guarantee you get a fuller, more rounded workout on those machines than you do chopping wood. Chopping wood is still good because it works quite a few muscle groups while being aerobic, i.e., you can do it for a long time while breathing hard. Weights make you breath hard too, but you cannot keep it up long, i.e., weight training is anaerobic.

The stomachs of olden fighters had to be very hard to endure body punches from horsehair mittens. We don't care how fat boys and bums trained or how hard they were. We are always interested in very good fighters, because they are the group that can most reliably be counted on to be in the best shape they know how to get in. They try really hard. Remember Ray Corso's definition of a bum? It was simply a guy who didn't try out there, that was a bum. We are not looking to judge the bodies of bums at training. We want guys who try very hard to get in their best shape.

As someone mentioned in the other thread, modern boxers end up highlighting every muscle in their bodies, because minute detailing of flesh is more reachable than ever. No one is saying this universal detailing is better for a boxer. I think the question is open. But that it happens and is now part of the boxing landscape as well as other sports, is undeniable, I would think.

Apple may be referring exclusively to another meaning of hard, as in men whose character has hardened. In that case my argument does not apply, but remains true, I believe. But in case it does apply:

* * * * *

As anecdotal evidence, I gaze at the olden photo of professional strongman Hermann Goerner, ready to perform and garbed only in brief trunks. The man is built and hard, no one will argue. He has no paunch like most of today's professional strongmen. He would be impressive to any casual eye, for in his day professional strongmen and bodybuilders were considered synonymous. The fact is, however, that many modern athletes are more detailed than The Mighty Goerner. They look good. They look superb. But does looking better equate to being better, or is its motive mostly vanity? That is the question. I think modern athletes are harder but I do know if they are better. I don't know if it is better to be all detailed out, or is it better to work on and build muscles traditionally considered advantageous for boxers to develop?

when I talk about this topic, or at least this thread I am almost exclusively talking about skill sets and mentality.

I don’t think modern conditioning if better or worse plays much of a role in terms of how good a fighter is. You could have a speed bag and a ring and be in better shape than someone with a whole facility, if you just worked harder. Ill apply this to the individual and not the era, just to clarify - because some fighters even today train pretty oldschool.

I can use modern day evidence to back this claim up. Tyson Fury is not an anomaly. He’s fat but he’s smarter than the average fighter today. He stays relaxed and throws efficient punches that don’t sap his energy. He understands the mental aspect of conditioning - but this type of stuff was common for any great fighter of the past. Frazier was an alcoholic going into the 3rd Ali fight and was still “capable” of going 15 rounds - because he knows how too.

my main point is the skill set. For example taking a hard body shot has everything to do with anticipating the punch as much as it does the conditioning of the stomach. I am also a firm believer that many-many fighters are just on roids and thats where the body comes from. To me personally, it looks like that too. That detailing look is often from roids flaring up every single muscle group, even the ones not being used.

as for Kronk and steward, he would prevent certain fighters from destroying eachother, but they all did spar on the regular. Footage is on Kronks instagram and youtube. Ive seen footage of Michael Moore beating up an old matthew saad Muhammad, Toney and Mclellan, mcallum and hearns and written accounts of them all sparring.

furthermore, I’ve been in some fight camps of fairly well known fighters (won’t mention) and honestly what they do isn’t anything sort of modern. Not everyone is like this across the board but most stuff is experimental and the biggest game changer is drugs and maybe being able to dehydrate 30 lbs. outside of that though, what else do they have? An ice bath? Lol

I can notice other little things like they have smaller speed bags now and things like that. I don’t like those though, they simply force the fighter to make smaller and smaller movements to the point they aren't even using their shoulders anymore. Its like throwing 10 weak punches vs 2 real ones.

what we don’t have today are good trainers. Ive actually never met a contemporary trainer that knows much about oldschool boxing. They are out there, but mad rare and dying off. And with no apprentices, can’t even regurgitate what they know at this point.

I’ll go as far as saying all things give or take are the same on the highest level, but the trainers were a lot better years ago (on the high level). Not sure why as of now, maybe the way it was set up, the amount of fights and the seriousness of it all? I personally think the change in amateur curriculum is one of the big points. And less fights. 2 fights a year isn’t enough to hone your craft.

[The Old LefHook]

when I talk about this topic, or at least this thread I am almost exclusively talking about skill sets and mentality.

I don’t think modern conditioning if better or worse plays much of a role in terms of how good a fighter is. You could have a speed bag and a ring and be in better shape than someone with a whole facility, if you just worked harder. Ill apply this to the individual and not the era, just to clarify - because some fighters even today train pretty oldschool.

I can use modern day evidence to back this claim up. Tyson Fury is not an anomaly. He’s fat but he’s smarter than the average fighter today. He stays relaxed and throws efficient punches that don’t sap his energy. He understands the mental aspect of conditioning - but this type of stuff was common for any great fighter of the past. Frazier was an alcoholic going into the 3rd Ali fight and was still “capable” of going 15 rounds - because he knows how too.

my main point is the skill set. For example taking a hard body shot has everything to do with anticipating the punch as much as it does the conditioning of the stomach. I am also a firm believer that many-many fighters are just on roids and thats where the body comes from. To me personally, it looks like that too. That detailing look is often from roids flaring up every single muscle group, even the ones not being used.

as for Kronk and steward, he would prevent certain fighters from destroying eachother, but they all did spar on the regular. Footage is on Kronks instagram and youtube. Ive seen footage of Michael Moore beating up an old matthew saad Muhammad, Toney and Mclellan, mcallum and hearns and written accounts of them all sparring.

furthermore, I’ve been in some fight camps of fairly well known fighters (won’t mention) and honestly what they do isn’t anything sort of modern. Not everyone is like this across the board but most stuff is experimental and the biggest game changer is drugs and maybe being able to dehydrate 30 lbs. outside of that though, what else do they have? An ice bath? Lol

I can notice other little things like they have smaller speed bags now and things like that. I don’t like those though, they simply force the fighter to make smaller and smaller movements to the point they aren't even using their shoulders anymore. Its like throwing 10 weak punches vs 2 real ones.

what we don’t have today are good trainers. Ive actually never met a contemporary trainer that knows much about oldschool boxing. They are out there, but mad rare and dying off. And with no apprentices, can’t even regurgitate what they know at this point.

I’ll go as far as saying all things give or take are the same on the highest level, but the trainers were a lot better years ago (on the high level). Not sure why as of now, maybe the way it was set up, the amount of fights and the seriousness of it all? I personally think the change in amateur curriculum is one of the big points. And less fights. 2 fights a year isn’t enough to hone your craft.

You need to prove that, especially the word "regular," one you just threw in for effect, I am pretty sure. I don't claim you are wrong, but you will have to prove they all sparred together regularly. I have read otherwise and I have watched McClellan and Hearns so-called sparring session or exhibition. It was a joke, really. Anyone should be able to see they were instructed not to throw right hands. Maybe you call that sparring. In fact , they did not throw any lefhooks either. It was as far removed from sparring as sparring is to a fight. The only rights they threw were accidents of instinct. They pulled their rights right away to prevented them from landing. Hearns' single mistake amounted to one errant right, which barely landed as he pulled it. Essentially, they threw only jabs. Perhaps Manny meant they could not be in the ring together unless Manny himself was on site to prevent any damage.

Show me I am wrong. It should be easy. I normally admit when I am wrong, which is quite a bit, so I am used to being corrected. I would rather you were right than myself. Do you have some clips where they are not obviously pulling their punches and avoiding throwing their money punches? In other words, not a little pitty-pat session for show.

[Willie Pep 229]

LOL! So despite the fact, that we today can study hundreds and hundreds of the old fights on film, all the great oldschool knowledge has now miraculously disappeard into thin air? Sure - that makes a lot of sense. Just as it did back in the 50s:

Archie Moore, Boxing Illustrated December 1958, page 27:
"You can count the really accomplished boxers active today on the fingers of one hand. Unless emergency measures are taken, boxing will soon be deader than the dodo bird. There aren't enough competent trainers and teachers around now".

Boxing Illustrated Magazine December 1958 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


And we can go further back in time.
1883, "The Art of Boxing", page 9:
"the school of boxing is rapidly dying out, and when the professors of the present day have passed away it will be hard to say where the new ones are to come from"

The art of boxing, swimming and gymnastics made easy .. : Williams, Henry Llewellyn, 1842- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

An old history maxim: Nothing really ever changes but the date.

[them_apples]

You need to prove that, especially the word "regular," one you just threw in for effect, I am pretty sure. I don't claim you are wrong, but you will have to prove they all sparred together regularly. I have read otherwise and I have watched McClellan and Hearns so-called sparring session or exhibition. It was a joke, really. Anyone should be able to see they were instructed not to throw right hands. Maybe you call that sparring. In fact , they did not throw any lefhooks either. It was as far removed from sparring as sparring is to a fight. The only rights they threw were accidents of instinct. They pulled their rights right away to prevented them from landing. Hearns' single mistake amounted to one errant right, which barely landed as he pulled it. Essentially, they threw only jabs. Perhaps Manny meant they could not be in the ring together unless Manny himself was on site to prevent any damage.

Show me I am wrong. It should be easy. I normally admit when I am wrong, which is quite a bit, so I am used to being corrected. I would rather you were right than myself. Do you have some clips where they are not obviously pulling their punches and avoiding throwing their money punches? In other words, not a little pitty-pat session for show.

Ill have to find it, but I an pretty sure it was emmanuel stewart who said it. I know hes also said to make sure 2 huge egos don’t destroy one and other as well - but I certainly heard it from stewart or someone similar that Kronk was a firehouse in the late 80s early 90s where all the best fighters were sparring eachother every day.

the footage ive seen is mclellan vs toney, and it was not a joke sparring, and obviously couldn’t be with those 2 in the ring. On Kronks instagram Moorer is def putting hands on old matthew saad

the one you mentioned is the only one that does look like lighter sparring.

theres also Hearns and mccallum sparring. Also keep in mind, unless mcclellan was green these guys can’t go easy with eachother. First jab that lands its game on.

[them_apples]

LOL! So despite the fact, that we today can study hundreds and hundreds of the old fights on film, all the great oldschool knowledge has now miraculously disappeard into thin air? Sure - that makes a lot of sense. Just as it did back in the 50s:

Archie Moore, Boxing Illustrated December 1958, page 27:
"You can count the really accomplished boxers active today on the fingers of one hand. Unless emergency measures are taken, boxing will soon be deader than the dodo bird. There aren't enough competent trainers and teachers around now".

Boxing Illustrated Magazine December 1958 : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive


And we can go further back in time.
1883, "The Art of Boxing", page 9:
"the school of boxing is rapidly dying out, and when the professors of the present day have passed away it will be hard to say where the new ones are to come from"

The art of boxing, swimming and gymnastics made easy .. : Williams, Henry Llewellyn, 1842- : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Yeah because boxing has evolved. Even the trainers from 1885 were teach bareknuckle tactics and centuries worth. But boxing changed again. I think we made a thread on this before. How if the fight was open mitt 6 oz grappling gloves Johnson may habe great success in any era.

boxing today is hype more than anything, with a few talents and obv the cream rises to the top. The factors at hand really aren’t so much about whos the best fighter and theres no system to really figure it out because promoters realized hype is all that matters. Look at the UfC and one if the highest ppv matches ever was between a retired boxer and a coked out mma fighter. They both talked **** for a few weeks and that was that. Tell me I’m wrong. This always exsisted, but the sport wasn’t shaped around this. Look in interviews like Charlo and Tyson. Charlo says business rules today wont allow him to call anyone out.

and sure they can study films, but do they? Ive heard some brutally embarassing quotes from many contemporary trainers both in person and on youtube.
then you hear a guy like Mike Tyson or Mayweather talk about boxing and they are **** on about everything, same with teddy Atlas. So I know I’m not deluding myself.

I can’t prove all this but this is what I see.

I totally agree though that History repeats itself, ans some degree of all around the board normalcy should be kept in regard. They are all still only human. And different fighters beat different fighters

ray robinson may Have beat erroll spence in his prime and lost to spence when he was 41 and older maybe. You know, anything can happen. Sometimes I like to watch 2 eras side by side on film and picture how they might potentially interact.

[Bundana]

Yeah because boxing has evolved. Even the trainers from 1885 were teach bareknuckle tactics and centuries worth. But boxing changed again. I think we made a thread on this before. How if the fight was open mitt 6 oz grappling gloves Johnson may habe great success in any era.

boxing today is hype more than anything, with a few talents and obv the cream rises to the top. The factors at hand really aren't so much about whos the best fighter and theres no system to really figure it out because promoters realized hype is all that matters. Look at the UfC and one if the highest ppv matches ever was between a retired boxer and a coked out mma fighter. They both talked **** for a few weeks and that was that. Tell me I'm wrong. This always exsisted, but the sport wasn't shaped around this. Look in interviews like Charlo and Tyson. Charlo says business rules today wont allow him to call anyone out.

and sure they can study films, but do they? Ive heard some brutally embarassing quotes from many contemporary trainers both in person and on youtube.
then you hear a guy like Mike Tyson or Mayweather talk about boxing and they are **** on about everything, same with teddy Atlas. So I know I'm not deluding myself.

I can't prove all this but this is what I see.

I totally agree though that History repeats itself, ans some degree of all around the board normalcy should be kept in regard. They are all still only human. And different fighters beat different fighters

ray robinson may Have beat erroll spence in his prime and lost to spence when he was 41 and older maybe. You know, anything can happen. Sometimes I like to watch 2 eras side by side on film and picture how they might potentially interact.

So how many fights are given the over-hyped build-up, that we have seen with Mayweather/McGregor/youtubers, etc.? Not a lot... I would guess, that at least 99% of the fights that take place around the world, are low-key (comparatively) events, without the ridiculous hype and fake animosity, that surround the few mega-fights we have each year. So to say, that boxing today is more hype than anything... well, that is just another one of your sweeping statements, that is neither here nor there!

And if you want to see some really embarassing quotes from seasoned observers of the game... you need to look no further than all the "experts", who make complete fools of themselves in Mike Silver's "Arc of Boxing"!

[The Old LefHook]

Ill have to find it, but I an pretty sure it was emmanuel stewart who said it. I know hes also said to make sure 2 huge egos don’t destroy one and other as well - but I certainly heard it from stewart or someone similar that Kronk was a firehouse in the late 80s early 90s where all the best fighters were sparring eachother every day.

the footage ive seen is mclellan vs toney, and it was not a joke sparring, and obviously couldn’t be with those 2 in the ring. On Kronks instagram Moorer is def putting hands on old matthew saad

the one you mentioned is the only one that does look like lighter sparring.

theres also Hearns and mccallum sparring. Also keep in mind, unless mcclellan was green these guys can’t go easy with eachother. First jab that lands its game on.

All we did is tell each other what we think we think because of something we think we read!

[them_apples]

So how many fights are given the over-hyped build-up, that we have seen with Mayweather/McGregor/youtubers, etc.? Not a lot... I would guess, that at least 99% of the fights that take place around the world, are low-key (comparatively) events, without the ridiculous hype and fake animosity, that surround the few mega-fights we have each year. So to say, that boxing today is more hype than anything... well, that is just another one of your sweeping statements, that is neither here nor there!

And if you want to see some really embarassing quotes from seasoned observers of the game... you need to look no further than all the "experts", who make complete fools of themselves in Mike Silver's "Arc of Boxing"!

curious why you don't like what Mike sliver has to say, a very knowledgeable boxing historian. Sure he throws some crazy numbers around, but so dowe all, including you. He's got a pretty good depth on knowledge though. I literally read his book once years ago - this is the 3rd time you have brought it up.

[them_apples]

All we did is tell each other what we think we think because of something we think we read!

In the mean time you can watch moorer sparring matthew saad, toney sparring Mclellan and Hearns sparring mcallum. Footage of them ****ing away.

[Bundana]

curious why you don't like what Mike sliver has to say, a very knowledgeable boxing historian. Sure he throws some crazy numbers around, but so dowe all, including you. He's got a pretty good depth on knowledge though. I literally read his book once years ago - this is the 3rd time you have brought it up.

I'm not talking about any of Mr. Silver's numbers... but the opinions of the long line of carefully selected experts, who are quoted in his book. Experts who all just happen to believe (like himself), that today's boxers/boxing suck!

Also, I'm interested to hear, what crazy numbers I have been throwing around?