Jeannette,Langford,McVey.Would They Have Defended Against Johnson?

[Ivich]

What's also interesting....

Would they want to give a chance to someone who has already beaten them? In some instances, apparently beaten them pretty badly.

Johnson got $31,500 for defending against Jim Flynn whom he had already comprehensively beaten.I think it more than likely the other three would have followed suit and defended against the White Hopes for big purses, rather than risk their title for smaller ones against better opponents.
In their place who would not do the same?

[Ivich]

Jeannette had strong ties to NY. He would have been both manipulated and simultaneously would have had plenty of options. He wouldn't have needed Johnson.

Langford on the other hand would have likely fell victim to a greedy promoter and would have been put in the ring with a parade of 'white hopes' until they used him up.

I doubt either ends up in the ring with Johnson.

In playing these 'what if' games the rules usually say you change only one fact. This means JJ would be as obnoxious to whites as be was in the OT, and I don't see him getting a shot at anyone's title.

The fight would have to take place outside the States which to me pretty much means only Langford.

(IMO Jeannette would wear his crown in NY and likely only fight in MSG (Bowl). If the law forbid it (NY) they wouldn't have let him and all that money venture too far from the northeast, certainly not out of the country. "They" being the NY power brokers.) ***

Back to Langford: Without JJ's victory over Burns (which now belongs to Langford in the new timeline,) it is not unreasonable for JJ to go unnoticed and he wouldn't have had the political clout to force the fight, not even likely IMO to get a shot at Langford Paris.

Me thinks only geeks like us would even know JJ's name today.

I know nothing about McVea's career.

*** I am aware Jeannette in the OT fought in Europe a few times but once champion in the NT, he vacations in Europe and fights in the NY area only.

Jeannette might have been a NY favourite but Johnson certainly wasn't,the NY AC refused to let him defend against Jeannette in NY twice,in fact they refused to let him box there at all.

[Ivich]

I don't know much about Jeanette and McVey outside of their records and dealings with specific people, but Sam Langford was a team player and Jack Johnson was not.

Jack pissed off the guy who looked out for him early in his career. Sam's a part of a long line of Black Canadians helping other Black Canadians do well.

I could see Sam fighting Jack in Latin America or Europe easy enough.



That said, something not often brought up when we talk about the colorline era; 1915 is the birth of the second version of the KKK and the year "The Birth of a Nation" dropped. The original Klan did not wear white or burn crosses. We all grew up with the burning crosses as part of our history but I reckon those sorts of displays were quite influential back then, when they were new. Also this Klan introduced the pyramid scheme aspects of the Klan.

By the 1920s the Klan's main focus was Catholics and Prohibition, not so much blacks, ***s, italians, russians, etc. To the point where counter clans formed like The Knights of The Flaming Circle, whose main objective was to protect Catholicism in the US...again, not so much ethnic as much as religion at this point.,


By the 30s the Klan was nominal at best and I think Braddock became the first Catholic champion. Of course not long followed by Marciano. Wouldn't be shocked if the Irish boys were catholics I just don't know. Sully, Corbett.


Basically, what I'm driving at is there's more truth behind Jack's era being anti-black than Dempsey's era. I don't think Langford would have let that stop him though, and JJ has a nice long history prior to being champion of being no great to his fellow black man. Like Dempsey, I believe JJ's excuse is an easy logical excuse but not nearly as binding or cuffing as he and others pretend it was.

Quack quack

Wasn't Tunney a Catholic? What in particular leads you to say Johnson has a history of not being great to his fellow blacks prior to him winnning the title?

[Marchegiano]

Wasn't Tunney a Catholic? What in particular leads you to say Johnson has a history of not being great to his fellow blacks prior to him winnning the title?

He every well may be, I don't much know most guys religions.

Before JJ was famous enough to make it on his own he depended on the guys who came before him, like all black fighters did. Jack used these men for his own gains and gave nothing back.

Frank Childs, the Texan who became a famous black HW a good generation prior to Johnson, gave Johnson a house to sleep in, meals, and hooked him up with training. Johnson repaid him by attempting to sleep with his woman.

It's just little stuff like that, leading into the much larger stuff later. Like, for example, I'd say not giving Childs a place to stay later in life is a bigger disrespect than hitting on his womurnz earlier, but it shows there was no shift in attitude and Johnson was always in this life for himself.

I'm a big fan of Jack Johnson, he's an individual's individual. He stands alone, an island unto himself, but team player? Not on your life.


Conversely, I don't remember the exact chain, but I think it goes Godfrey trained and supporter Butler, Butler did the same for Langford, who then returned the favor for Feab-Godfrey.


And like I said, I don't actually know much about Jean or Mc's careers in those terms. I am not sure about their conduct toward other black fighters.

[Willie Pep 229]

Jeannette might have been a NY favourite but Johnson certainly wasn't,the NY AC refused to let him defend against Jeannette in NY twice,in fact they refused to let him box there at all.

Correct - IMO Jeannette never leaves NY and they never fight. Maybe I wasn't clear sorry.

[QueensburyRules]

If the situation had been reversed,and any of the three named been world champ,would they have defended against Jack Johnson,or taken the easier ,more profitable fights against white challengers?

- - We almost had a partial situation with Sam pursuing Burns but unable to land the bout in that short window of overseas expenses that saw him win a British title before returning stateside. But guaranteed Sam would've rematched JJohnson in a nanosecond no matter circumstances if he could've gotten him in the ring.

Pep has the likely JJohnson scenario

McVey and JJohnson were running buddies, so maybe hold an exhibition that gets out of hand is the best I can come up with for them.

[Ivich]

- - We almost had a partial situation with Sam pursuing Burns but unable to land the bout in that short window of overseas expenses that saw him win a British title before returning stateside. But guaranteed Sam would've rematched JJohnson in a nanosecond no matter circumstances if he could've gotten him in the ring.

Pep has the likely JJohnson scenario

McVey and JJohnson were running buddies, so maybe hold an exhibition that gets out of hand is the best I can come up with for them.

Langford's manager was pursuing a fight with Ketchel,In 1908 I wouldn't bet on Sam to beat Johnson.
Sam was still a middle weight in1908 ,I don't think its a given he beat Burns then.
I'm also pretty convinced Joe Woodman would have kept him away from a rematch with Johnson should he have been lucky enough to catch him on a bad night first time around.

[Ivich]

He every well may be, I don't much know most guys religions.

Before JJ was famous enough to make it on his own he depended on the guys who came before him, like all black fighters did. Jack used these men for his own gains and gave nothing back.

Frank Childs, the Texan who became a famous black HW a good generation prior to Johnson, gave Johnson a house to sleep in, meals, and hooked him up with training. Johnson repaid him by attempting to sleep with his woman.

It's just little stuff like that, leading into the much larger stuff later. Like, for example, I'd say not giving Childs a place to stay later in life is a bigger disrespect than hitting on his womurnz earlier, but it shows there was no shift in attitude and Johnson was always in this life for himself.

I'm a big fan of Jack Johnson, he's an individual's individual. He stands alone, an island unto himself, but team player? Not on your life.


Conversely, I don't remember the exact chain, but I think it goes Godfrey trained and supporter Butler, Butler did the same for Langford, who then returned the favor for Feab-Godfrey.


And like I said, I don't actually know much about Jean or Mc's careers in those terms. I am not sure about their conduct toward other black fighters.

What do you think Johnson owed the likes of Byers, Godfrey,Jackson? The Childs story is apocryphal and I've read several versions of it.
Johnson mentored and promoted Kid Cotton,and George Godfrey2,paid for McVey's funeral and visited Jackson's grave. Sam McVey lived with Johnson and his wife for a time,and seconded him against Willard.

[Marchegiano]

What do you think Johnson owed the likes of Byers, Godfrey,Jackson? The Childs story is apocryphal and I've read several versions of it.
Johnson mentored and promoted Kid Cotton,and George Godfrey2,paid for McVey's funeral and visited Jackson's grave. Sam McVey lived with Johnson and his wife for a time,and seconded him against Willard.

No one said owed. I said he did not give back.

I mean when you're at the point when you're calling a grave visit some level of taking care of others I think we can just stop and agree to disagree. In my book he did not do anything for anyone that did not benefit him more. Including McVey's Funeral. 1920's Johnson is trying to be an entertainer. They still do that sort of stuff and it's still for promotion, to keep names in papers. Guys who do stuff for others don't then use papers to promote their name. Mayweather's done quite a bit of unreported good. Wonder why it's so under reported?

Like I said before, I am a fan. I just don't see him as a guy who cares for others. If JJ was helping me I'd be looking out for how it benefits him.

Kevin Smith is far and away my favorite historian on the era. I follow his version of events. Adam Polluck is ****.

[JAB5239]

Didnt Hugh Mcintosh offer $50k for Langford-Johnson in Australia only to have Johnson nack out with the famous quote "im not fighting him. That little smoke has a chance to beat anybody".

And if it were just a matter of money can anyone tell me who put up the 30k to have a fight with no hope Battling Jim Johnson?