Archie moore is one of the most skillful fighters ever

[The Old LefHook]

Out of this list I can't see a way Foster, Hopkins, Ward and even Braxton are ahead of him. Johnsons competition was just straight up WAY better. Fighting Archie Moore multiple times alone is something that completely wipes the table with the resumes listed. then add in all the other great fighters, he matched - multiple times. All we can really go by are resumes, Foster for example looks great but who did he ever really beat? He moved up to heavyweight and couldn't change his style and got dominated for the most part. So really he was a smooth punching LHW with a huge size advantage and somewhat weak competition. I hate saying that about him, cause he's fun to watch and has a nice jab and left hook - but thats his resume really.

Charles
Tunney
Spinks
Loughran
Greb
Foster
Moore
Braxton
Slattery
Rosenbloom
Roy Jones
Tarver
Hopkins
Ward

speaking of fighters that looked destructive at LHW but never fought anyone...Michael Moorer


ALSO, on the point about having to beat an ATG to be one. This can't be used as a requirement, because the status of ATG comes at the end of a career. On a given night some fighters may be great in terms of performance. Or not so good. I think it's too big of a requirement since a lot of things have to work for that to happen in the first place.

I said anyone of them COULD be placed above Johnson, not that they had to be.

I don't even recognize the majority of Johnson's opponents. Are you saying you recognize the majority of them? I recognize about a dozen names.

When fighting great fighters, it really enhances your reputation to beat them once in a while. One UD victory over Moore out of 5 fights is okay. A single victory of Greb's and LaMotta's certainly enhanced their reputations.

Archie proved he was nowhere near as good as Ezzard; Harold proved he was nowhere near as good as Archie; Satterfield went 1-2 with Johnson.

On the other hand, beating a shot fighter with a big name only impresses fools.

And ATG CAN be used as a requirement. We are looking at the career in overview after the fact anyway. For instance, if a victory over Mosley was appraised on the basis of his early reputation, the win would probably be way overrated. Forrest had just knocked off a guy whom no less than Papa Smurf had already hailed as the coming of an ATG. Whoops, Papa! Those wins had to be reappraised after the fact, to make their appraisal more accurate..

[them_apples]

I said anyone of them COULD be placed above Johnson, not that they had to be.

I don't even recognize the majority of Johnson's opponents. Are you saying you recognize the majority of them? I recognize about a dozen names.

When fighting great fighters, it really enhances your reputation to beat them once in a while. One UD victory over Moore out of 5 fights is okay. A single victory of Greb's and LaMotta's certainly enhanced their reputations.

Archie proved he was nowhere near as good as Ezzard; Harold proved he was nowhere near as good as Archie; Satterfield went 1-2 with Johnson.

On the other hand, beating a shot fighter with a big name only impresses fools.

And ATG CAN be used as a requirement. We are looking at the career in overview after the fact anyway. For instance, if a victory over Mosley was appraised on the basis of his early reputation, the win would probably be way overrated. Forrest had just knocked off a guy whom no less than Papa Smurf had already hailed as the coming of an ATG. Whoops, Papa! Those wins had to be reappraised after the fact, to make their appraisal more accurate..

Ill be honest it would take a serious in depth review of his resume in regards to the timing of the bouts and how they played out, as well as all his other oponents.

but on the point as using an atg victory as a requirement, well I think you would mean an ATG in their prime? Because an ATG past their prime, even marginally - may lose to a really good fighter who only had a few great fights and fizzled out early or had a poorly managed career.

I know you said we are judging AFTER the fact just to clarify, but in order for this to mean something the atg would have to be in their prime, and in this sense its simply just an A+ victory. How many fighters are walking around with these types of victories where all the stars align? Not many.

Leonard over Hearns,
Ali over Foreman
Duran over Leonard.

but not fights like this:

Frazier over Ali (Ali isnt prime, and a similar version is losing to Norton as well)
Leonard over Duran (Duran is prime at LW).
Tyson over Holmes, etc etc

and then you have the idea that if you face someone 4 times and win 1, well he may not have won any of them without a 4th bout, so how will you judge a contemporary fighter that was able to avoid rubber matches? You certainly cant fault the older fighter for having losses accrued from 3rd and 4th bouts against top level comp.

[Ivich]

Great post.

And Johnson beat Charles mate, it was an SD win for Johnson. Not quite sure how it was a Split because he won clearly.

He also clearly beat Willie Pastrano and was robbed in one of the worst robberies I ever saw.

Yes you're right he did beat Charles I forgot about that one!Thanks for reminding me.

• The Associated Press reported: "Harold Johnson of Philadelphia won a 10-round upset decision over former heavyweight champion Ezzard Charles in a bruising, slashing, action-packed brawl at Connie Mack Stadium last night. The 25-year-old light heavyweight, making his first big time boxing bid, was awarded a split decision."
• Johnson was an 11-5 betting underdog.
• The crowd of 8,462 produced a gate of $37,680.
• A short but deep gash over Johnson's right eye, suffered in the first round, trickled persistently into the eye and handicapped him throughout the fight. The cut required only one stitch to close. Charles suffered a slight cut over his left eye in the eighth.
• Charles hit Johnson with a right in the tenth round, and Johnson fired back with a right of his own. As he threw the punch, Johnson went down on his right knee. He jumped up immediately, and the referee did not rule it a knockdown.
• Promoter Herman Taylor stated before the fight that the International Boxing Club promised the winner of the fight the next shot at the heavyweight title.
• The contract had a clause that gave Charles the right to a rematch within 60 days and the right to choose the site. Charles' co-managers, Tom Tannas and Jake Mintz, said they wanted the return bout in either Pittsburgh or Milwaukee. Johnson's manager, Tommy Loughrey, confirmed there was a rematch clause but said they were leaning towards a world title fight with either heavyweight champ Rocky Marciano or light heavyweight champ Archie Moore.

[Ivich]

I said anyone of them COULD be placed above Johnson, not that they had to be.

I don't even recognize the majority of Johnson's opponents. Are you saying you recognize the majority of them? I recognize about a dozen names.

When fighting great fighters, it really enhances your reputation to beat them once in a while. One UD victory over Moore out of 5 fights is okay. A single victory of Greb's and LaMotta's certainly enhanced their reputations.

Archie proved he was nowhere near as good as Ezzard; Harold proved he was nowhere near as good as Archie; Satterfield went 1-2 with Johnson.

On the other hand, beating a shot fighter with a big name only impresses fools.

And ATG CAN be used as a requirement. We are looking at the career in overview after the fact anyway. For instance, if a victory over Mosley was appraised on the basis of his early reputation, the win would probably be way overrated. Forrest had just knocked off a guy whom no less than Papa Smurf had already hailed as the coming of an ATG. Whoops, Papa! Those wins had to be reappraised after the fact, to make their appraisal more accurate..

You surely recognize these names?
Harold Johnson beat
Moore
Lytell
Slade
Godoy
Machen
Henry
Jones
Hank
Scholz
Bowdrey
Bivins
Satterfield
Valdes
Cotton
Charles
It's also as well to bear in mind that in quite a few cases Johnson was conceding weight to ranked heavyweights.

[Ivich]

- - I do like Mitchem, just not as Jim. I saw him mostly on tv reruns, whereas in Texas, any new John Wayne movie was good as gold for at least a years run in every Texas theater.

If you get a chance, The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance as good a western as ever made. Prime Vera Miles ain't too shabby either, and if she don't make you cry, well, your loss.

TMWSLV is a great film as is The Searchers, in that Vera Miles played Wayne;s niece instead of his girlfriend.
ps The best performance inTMWSLV may be Edmund O Brien' s as the newspaper editor.

[QueensburyRules]

TMWSLV is a great film as is The Searchers, in that Vera Miles played Wayne;s niece instead of his girlfriend.
ps The best performance inTMWSLV may be Edmund O Brien' s as the newspaper editor.

- - Think that the one where Vera gets kidnapped by Comanches in a raiding/killing spree.

Movie based on Chief Quanah Parker's Mother who had been kidnapped as a child by Comanches to become Chief Nocona's wife.

Quanah the last great Comanche Chief at the end of the Plains Indian Domination put settlers and American military through hell and back. Been through Nokona, Tx and Quanah, Tx, both near as desolate as they were back when.

[Ivich]

- - Think that the one where Vera gets kidnapped by Comanches in a raiding/killing spree.

Movie based on Chief Quanah Parker's Mother who had been kidnapped as a child by Comanches to become Chief Nocona's wife.

Quanah the last great Comanche Chief at the end of the Plains Indian Domination put settlers and American military through hell and back. Been through Nokona, Tx and Quanah, Tx, both near as desolate as they were back when.

No,you're thinking of Debbie played by a young Natalie Wood,Vera Miles is in love with Jeffrey Hunter in the movie.The film like the book was based on the story of Cynthia Ann Parker's life she was Quanah's Mother.Vera Miles character is Laurie Jorgenson sister of Brad Jorgenson played by Harry Carey Jnr his father was in John Ford's early westerns and his trademark pose was to hold his elbow with his hand.At the end of the film Wayne adopts this gesture whilst framed in the doorway as a tribute to Carey Snr. Harry Carey Jnr was a mainstay in many of Ford's westerns including 3 God Fathers ,She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, and Wagon Master,along with his close friend Ben Johnson,both were excellent horsemen.

[IronDanHamza]

Looks like Harold Johnson beat a lot of good fighters. BUT he didn't beat any prime great ones, unless you count Moore, which is what the discussion is about, and unless he actually squeaked by Charles once. He did squeak by Charles once, and managed a split decision over Archie one of the five times they fought.

Johnson beat Charles during his worst streak ever, and late in his career, when Ezzard was busy losing 17 out of his last 29 fights!

Johnson was not exactly wiping the competition clean. He was losing some and winning some. Was he an ATG? Maybe. He doesn't have the record of one. But one thing he has going for him is that he beat some pretty good heavyweights, usually quite a trick for light heavyweights.

How good was Johnson? Good enough to lose to Moore 4 out of 5 times.

Charles
Tunney
Spinks
Loughran
Greb
Foster
Moore
Braxton
Slattery
Rosenbloom
Roy Jones
Tarver
Hopkins
Ward



All those guys could easily go before Johnson. I think it is stretchy to place Johnson in the top ten.

Next question.

Can a man who is 12, 13, or 14th best AT in his own division be an ATG?


* * * * *

I am still interested in the question of whether a fighter can be an ATG without having beaten any ATGs. Personally, I think he can. When there is a paucity of absolutely ATGs, one has to judge by how a fighter did against competition that was real good but below the ATG level. Robinson himself did not topple any ATGs when they were at their best, that I can see, other than perhaps Gavilan, if Gav is one. But a record of 121-1 at one point, speaks loudly on Ray's behalf. LaMotta was significantly larger than Robinson, but not sure he was an absolute ATG, just quite good and competent, like a lot of Harold Johnson's opponents as well, it seems to me.

* * * *

There is still evidence to be heard, seen and discovered with regard to Johnson. I go with evidence, not knee jerks. He seems like a highly competent fighter at this point. I may have a little trouble seeing him as an ATG. If Johnson is an ATG then Moore must be significantly higher, since he whipped him 4 out of 5 times.

The one light heavyweight you can probably say is great merely from perusing his record is Ezzard. He beat all the light heavies that gave each other such trouble. He was shot by the time Johnson reached him at fight 94. Marciano entered the picture even a few fights later. During his prime Ezz outclassed them all at light heavy, which nobody can deny.

Charles was still a top fighter at that time, was still beating top fighters. He wasn't shot at all, not even close actually.

Johnson beat Charles and Moore, two Top 10 ATG's for my money. Both when they were still top fighters. If that's not a great fighter then I'm not sure what is.

Johnson lost to Moore 4 of the 5 times yes, but most of those were very close fights. He showed that he was on Moore's level despite losing 4 of them. Even the one he was stopped in, ironically the one fight that Johnson was winning handily at the time.

[Ivich]

Charles was still a top fighter at that time, was still beating top fighters. He wasn't shot at all, not even close actually.

Johnson beat Charles and Moore, two Top 10 ATG's for my money. Both when they were still top fighters. If that's not a great fighter then I'm not sure what is.

Johnson lost to Moore 4 of the 5 times yes, but most of those were very close fights. He showed that he was on Moore's level despite losing 4 of them. Even the one he was stopped in, ironically the one fight that Johnson was winning handily at the time.

In his next two fights he best two ranked men Wallace and Satterfield.

[QueensburyRules]

No,you're thinking of Debbie played by a young Natalie Wood,Vera Miles is in love with Jeffrey Hunter in the movie.The film like the book was based on the story of Cynthia Ann Parker's life she was Quanah's Mother.Vera Miles character is Laurie Jorgenson sister of Brad Jorgenson played by Harry Carey Jnr his father was in John Ford's early westerns and his trademark pose was to hold his elbow with his hand.At the end of the film Wayne adopts this gesture whilst framed in the doorway as a tribute to Carey Snr. Harry Carey Jnr was a mainstay in many of Ford's westerns including 3 God Fathers ,She Wore A Yellow Ribbon, and Wagon Master,along with his close friend Ben Johnson,both were excellent horsemen.

- - Here is Natalie looking in love with Hunter.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0049730...v1=still_frame

No matter since I ain't seen the movie since I was a kid, but yeah, movie based on Chief Nokona and Cynthia Ann Parker who when returned to her family against her will refused to eat or drink anything thing until she died. Terrible times can never be captured by HollowWood.