"How I Would Have Clobbered Clay" by Joe Louis

[HOUDINI563]

Always a classic! Joe could throw every punch... its just a bit ironick that he wasn't known to go to the body so much... But his understanding makes sense... I feel as you do, I agree with some stuff, not so much with other stuff Joe points out.

If you watch his first bout with Buddy Baer. Baer hid his chin behind his wide shoulder making it a tough target. Louis however ducked a left hook and buried his own hook into Bear’s midsection, nearly breaking him in two. Seconds later Bear’s chin ever so slightly came out from behind his shoulder and Louis next blow a right cross dropped him nearly for the ten count.

Louis in his fight with John Henry Lewis brought his blows seamlessly from head to body again nearly breaking his opponent into.

Louis koed Red Burman with a right to the heart.

[HOUDINI563]

When you see Frazier dismantle Ali in 71 just with one blow, his left hook, you wonder what Louis with a much deadlier hook and an even more deadly right would have done. Ali was not prime in this bout but was always open to be hit with hooks.

[QueensburyRules]

When you see Frazier dismantle Ali in 71 just with one blow, his left hook, you wonder what Louis with a much deadlier hook and an even more deadly right would have done. Ali was not prime in this bout but was always open to be hit with hooks.

- - Ali prime age 25 vs Folley and prime age 28 vs Quarry, traditional prime age values used in athletics of which boxing at least used to be one of such disciplines.

Perhaps you mean in a boxing sense, ie rust from his 3 yr exile. OK, Quarry required him to get into shape, 214 lb, ie in his best boxing prime age boxing weight range, a short 3 rds to tap out Quarry on cuts. Still 28 for Bonavena, Ali now at 212 lb in an awkward, rugged test for 15 rds before the dubious stoppage. I say dubious because in the 3 KDs, Ali never once went to a neutral corner, but nonetheless, Ali still prime athletic years would appear to be at a very high level boxing shape.

Vs Joe, 29 yr old Ali quite cleverly makes him into an Uncle Tom, a regrettable slur reference to Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin where Tom is the Hero of the Book, yet co-opted by the black community as the villain. After prime year booking problems from his Vietnam political stance and NOI associations, now Ali in the middle of a love fest with white Americans, primarily the college youth feting him as the conquering hero come home to claim what is his, ie the biggest record breaking purses since Jack Dempsey.

Meanwhile, Joe now has to hire body guards to protect his children, so it's not a stretch to think what Joe fears if he beats Ali going into their fight.

We know the result, but Joe's side of the equation gets lost in his greatest victory that earned him more bitter than sweet.

[billeau2]

If you watch his first bout with Buddy Baer. Baer hid his chin behind his wide shoulder making it a tough target. Louis however ducked a left hook and buried his own hook into Bear’s midsection, nearly breaking him in two. Seconds later Bear’s chin ever so slightly came out from behind his shoulder and Louis next blow a right cross dropped him nearly for the ten count.

Louis in his fight with John Henry Lewis brought his blows seamlessly from head to body again nearly breaking his opponent into.

Louis koed Red Burman with a right to the heart.

I know he could throw the punch well... It just was not a common strategy for Louis. Were talking about a time when a DECENT fighter... not a great fighter could enumerate a litany of skills... And Louis was a perfect punching machine, much like dempsey (different in many ways)... So could Louis beat you with a jab? Yes... Could he beat you with a counter punch timed perfectly? probably... And yes he could beat you to the body. But Louis given what he calls "his fight" regarding Ali, is suspect because Louis fight, the way he usually won was the probability of landing that cross... Set up any number of ways.

Knowing he could catch you by relentlessly stalking you, louis could predict that in a 15 round fight he would get at least a certain amount of bites at the apple. And he was always right. The Conn fight was, imo, in this respect, a crowning achievement. Conn could not escape the averages lol! Whether by Hijinks, or Haphanzstanz... Louis was going to get at least a few diamond opportunities! And Louis was that good.

The reason I don't think it was natural for Louis to beat the body was because of his hands... Dempsey and Marciano were not as precise as Louis when it came to conserving energy. Louis did not want to smack a hand on an elbow, or even a shoulder... when he could smack that same hand to the chin, or jaw. Would he really want to try to **** Clay all day that way? I agree with you that he could do so... of course Clay would have something to say about that lol... Just don't know if that was better than what Frazier did (for example) and time Ali going backwards (something Louis alluded to as well).

[billeau2]

When you see Frazier dismantle Ali in 71 just with one blow, his left hook, you wonder what Louis with a much deadlier hook and an even more deadly right would have done. Ali was not prime in this bout but was always open to be hit with hooks.

In boxing theory you can have punches that delinerately are slower, and even loop deliberately. We don't see that much because the Ammy theories are so basic, but in Mexican boxing ideology many great fighters "time" their punches so that the speed varies... Like an off speed pitch in baseball. I mention this because this was the type of strategy that Frazier used to catch Ali... It just so happened that it was a hook... The thing that made the difference was Ali being able to avoid a fast punch ducking back in a straight line... It never occured to Ali that speed was not the thing to overcome. Frazier's hook was accurate and Frazier could know where Ali would be in a split second... the rest is history.

IM saying all this because Louis' speed of punch would not necessarily be why he could hope to catch Ali going back... Maybe, but not necessarily, as Ali, much like Jones and Robinson, had some attributes concerning reflexes, that were rare, even among the best, ATG fighters.

[Richard M.Murrieta]

Joe Louis once wrote about his 1941 bout against Billy Conn, He Can Run But He Can't Hide. I saw the Muhammad Ali vs Karl Mildenberger fight live on ABC's Wide World Of Sports on Sept 10 1966. Ali did have trouble early with Mildenberger's southpaw style but eventually solved it with his straight right hand to the jaw of Karl. A hypothetical fight with Ali vs Joe Louis would have been a good fight. A peak 1966 Ali with his footwork, reflexes, stamina, and speed would have been interesting, Ali back then did not utilize the famed Rope A Dope as he would later use on George Foreman in Zaire, 1974.

[QueensburyRules]

Joe Louis once wrote about his 1941 bout against Billy Conn, He Can Run But He Can't Hide. I saw the Muhammad Ali vs Karl Mildenberger fight live on ABC's Wide World Of Sports on Sept 10 1966. Ali did have trouble early with Mildenberger's southpaw style but eventually solved it with his straight right hand to the jaw of Karl. A hypothetical fight with Ali vs Joe Louis would have been a good fight. A peak 1966 Ali with his footwork, reflexes, stamina, and speed would have been interesting, Ali back then did not utilize the famed Rope A Dope as he would later use on George Foreman in Zaire, 1974.

- - Ali was at least sometimes lazy in training and used ropadope in sparring for the Terrell and Cleveland Williams fights as I witnessed. Perplexing I might add.

[HOUDINI563]

Joe Louis once wrote about his 1941 bout against Billy Conn, He Can Run But He Can't Hide. I saw the Muhammad Ali vs Karl Mildenberger fight live on ABC's Wide World Of Sports on Sept 10 1966. Ali did have trouble early with Mildenberger's southpaw style but eventually solved it with his straight right hand to the jaw of Karl. A hypothetical fight with Ali vs Joe Louis would have been a good fight. A peak 1966 Ali with his footwork, reflexes, stamina, and speed would have been interesting, Ali back then did not utilize the famed Rope A Dope as he would later use on George Foreman in Zaire, 1974.

I believe Joe was referencing body punches that Mildenburger hurt Ali even later on in the fight.

[StarshipTrooper]

People forget, too, that in the first Liston fight, during the round Ali was blinded, Liston beat him bad with body punches (Ali has nasty welts and bruises on his ribcage after the fight). It just tended to get overlooked in all the noise that fight generated.

[markusmod]

People forget, too, that in the first Liston fight, during the round Ali was blinded, Liston beat him bad with body punches (Ali has nasty welts and bruises on his ribcage after the fight). It just tended to get overlooked in all the noise that fight generated.

A lot of conspiracy theories over that fight