Jack Dempsey vs Jack Johnson 1921 Debunked

[Marchegiano]

I'm just making this thread so all my sources are in one easy to find post.




(Link) Did Jack Johnson fight Jack Dempsey? - Boxing News (boxingnewsonline.net)



Youtube Coverage:

Original Post:

The Fight Beat article written by Lew Eskin sources the Brooklyn Eagle. Who ran the Eagle's article? The editor. It's a re-print of the Chicago Tribune's Ray Pearson. The Eagle sources the Tribune and Ray for the article.

What's at the bottom of the Eagle article explain's Ray's written a fiction:

"Unfortunately for the Chicago Tribune and their special ringside correspondent, neither Dempsey nor Johnson were in Saskatoon last Saturday. Anyway it was a corking good story and worth reprinting. Ray Pearson is losing time. He ought to be writing fiction."

Reaching out to the Saskatoon Star to BE received and printed the following from their sports editor:

" No Dempsey-Johnson bout here. Dempsey on Coast. Has not been here yet."

Weeks passed and then the The Meriden Daily Journal would report:

"alas the fight fan, who reads the above will doubtless feel like blowing up the town hall in his excitement and wonderment. However, there is no need for surprise. The Story is written by Ray Pearson, sports writer on a Chicago paper. It is one of a series of articles in which the writer describes imaginary battles between present day champions and those of a decade or more ago. The object of the articles, according to Mr. Pearson, is to show possible results of such battles were each of the participant in his prime."

Finally we get to the most damning piece of evidence, Ray never passed the fight off as an actual fight. At the end of the Chicago Tribune original the article reads:

"This is the first of a series of articles by Ray Pearson describing mythical battles between present day champions and those of a decade or more ago."


Questions I have.

Why would Fight Beat run a story and ask readers the plausibility when the end of the article they are sourcing debunks the story? Lew Eskin is said to have purchased a copy of the original BE article. The same Lew Eskin who is apparently a notable boxing historian and editor of Boxing Illustrated.

Why would Dempsey perpetuate the myth rather than explaining he wasn't even in the same province let alone city? Is it possible Lew made up Dempsey's response to the article as well?

Why would Johnson not debunk the myth? It seems like if the debunking info wasn't a known thing in the 20s then Johnson would have been asked.

To be fair to Dempsey and Lew, Dempsey's response to the fight or hoax comes from Lew and doesn't confirm or deny anything on its own, though, Lew does frame it as if he does. Apparently while at a writer's dinner in 83 Lew asked Dempsey about the fight and Jack laughed while saying " I always said I could beat Johnson"



The BE:
07 Dec 1921, Page 24 - The Brooklyn Daily Eagle at Newspapers.com

The Meriden:
The Meriden Daily Journal - Google News Archive Search

The CT:
Clipping from Chicago Tribune - Newspapers.com

The Tribune requires a sign up. It's free but you have to look for it, at first it'll look like you have to pay to see it but you don't, look for options and you'll see the free account option.


It seems very much like Lew wrote some propaganda. On purpose and with intention, misleading his readers. It doesn't seem like it was taken all that seriously in the 20s nor does it seem like there was actually much interest in Ray's articles until Lew's 1985 article featuring the fight bit but not the myth bit of Ray's original. I struggle to believe Lew missed the end of his own source and did no research into the matter before printing the 85 article. I'm pretty confident he pulled a Nat and printed what provokes on purpose to drive interest.


I apologize if any of my links and such don't work. I'm still learning the new site.

Debunking Links:

The Brooklyn Eagle:
07 Dec 1921, Page 24 - The Brooklyn Daily Eagle at Newspapers.com

The Meriden:
The Meriden Daily Journal - Google News Archive Search

The Chicago Tribune:
Clipping from Chicago Tribune - Newspapers.com

More of Ray's series:

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72440932/
Jimmy Barry - Johnny Buff by Ray Pearson

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72441185/
Jack Johnson vs Peter The Great by Ray Pearson

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72441338/
Barbados Walcott vs Jack Britton by Ray Pearson

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72441570/
Terry McGovern vs Johnny Kilbane by Ray Pearson

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72441684/
Tommy Ryan vs Mike Gibbons by Ray Pearson

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72441826/
Tommy Gibbons vs Kid McCoy by Ray Pearson.

And Bit's source post:

The full series can be found in the Sunday Times of New York, with the following dates and pages, that was just the paper I found them in as it was published in several.
1921 Dec 11 (page 44), DEMPSEY KNOCKS OUT JOHNSON IN SEVENTH ROUND (Jack Dempsey knocks out Jack Johnson in the 7th)
1921 Dec 18 (page 42), GANS'S RINGCRAFT TOO MUCH FOR BENNY LEONARD (Joe Gans outpoints Benny Leonard over 15 rounds)
1921 Dec 25 (page 42), KETCHEL KNOCKS OUT WILSON IN THIRD (Stanley Ketchel knocks out Johnny Wilson in the third round)
1922 Jan 01 (page 44), JIMMY BARRY BEATS BUFF IN FURIOUS GO (Jimmy Barry outpoints Johnny Buff over 10 rounds)
1922 Jan 08 (page 43), "TERRIBLE TERRY" McGOVERN BATTERS JOHNNY KILBANE TO CANVAS IN NINTH (Terry McGoverns knocks out Johnny Kilbane in the 9th round)
1922 Jan 15 (page 44) DEMPSEY'S BODY BLOWS BEAT FITZ (Jack Dempsey knocks out Bob Fitzsimmons in the 4th round)
1922 Jan 22 (page 42) WILY KID M’COY PUTS GIBBONS OUT IN 8TH (Kid McCoy knocks out Tommy Gibbons in the 8th round)
1922 Jan 29 (page 44) JOHNSON WINS BY A SHADE OVER JACKSON (Jack Johnson outpoints Peter Jackson over 10 rounds)
1922 Feb 05 (page 44) DEMPSEY DEFEATS JEFFRIES IN 12th (Jack Dempsey knocks out James J Jeffries in the 12th round)
1922 Feb 12 (page 43) “PHANTOM” MIKE AND TOM RYAN DRAW (Mike Gibbons and Tommy Ryan fight 10 rounds to a draw)
1922 Feb 19 (page 37) WALCOTT HAS EDGE ON JACK BRITTON (Joe Walcott wins on points in an 8 round contest against Jack Britton)

That's this just as debunked as it was on Feb 25th 2021, but easier to find now.





---

I may actually add Walter Price and do a whole thing on fictional stories about Jack Johnson. If I run across another magazine claim with **** all no backing behind it, that's three, that's enough, I'll make the thread.




Also, Billy Miske was, is, will be in the future, just one of thousands of contenders who were not even ATG contenders. - But don't take my word for it, I never prove anything, Willie, you ****....you're all over my OG thread about this, enjoying me proving ****....****.

[Willie Pep 229]

I'm just making this thread so all my sources are in one easy to find post.




(Link) Did Jack Johnson fight Jack Dempsey? - Boxing News (boxingnewsonline.net)



Youtube Coverage:

Original Post:



Debunking Links:

The Brooklyn Eagle:
07 Dec 1921, Page 24 - The Brooklyn Daily Eagle at Newspapers.com

The Meriden:
The Meriden Daily Journal - Google News Archive Search

The Chicago Tribune:
Clipping from Chicago Tribune - Newspapers.com

More of Ray's series:

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72440932/
Jimmy Barry - Johnny Buff by Ray Pearson

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72441185/
Jack Johnson vs Peter The Great by Ray Pearson

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72441338/
Barbados Walcott vs Jack Britton by Ray Pearson

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72441570/
Terry McGovern vs Johnny Kilbane by Ray Pearson

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72441684/
Tommy Ryan vs Mike Gibbons by Ray Pearson

https://www.newspapers.com/clip/72441826/
Tommy Gibbons vs Kid McCoy by Ray Pearson.

And Bit's source post:




That's this just as debunked as it was on Feb 25th 2021, but easier to find now.





---

I may actually add Walter Price and do a whole thing on fictional stories about Jack Johnson. If I run across another magazine claim with **** all no backing behind it, that's three, that's enough, I'll make the thread.




Also, Billy Miske was, is, will be in the future, just one of thousands of contenders who were not even ATG contenders. - But don't take my word for it, I never prove anything, Willie, you ****....you're all over my OG thread about this, enjoying me proving ****....****.

You can prove a fight occured, you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt a fight didn't occur.

You can't prove someone was or was not an ATG. It is always just opinion.

Sort of like how the HOF has an opinion and included Billy Miske as an ATG. I suspose you will PROVE them wrong. LOL

P.S. I wouldn't have replied but it seems you want the fight.

[Marchegiano]

[/B]

You can prove a fight occured, you can prove beyond a reasonable doubt a fight didn't occur.

You can't prove someone was or was not an ATG. It is always just opinion.

Sort of like how the HOF has an opinion and included Billy Miske as an ATG. I suspose you will PROVE them wrong. LOL

P.S. I wouldn't have replied but it seems you want the fight.

You can call it a fight, but from where I sit it isn't even. You are a mark.

There is no talking me out of it if I think it's funny because I could not care less if you do not.

There is no proving hmm? Then why you call me Trump over it for son?

Seems like that throws your whole original Miske protection angle out the window huh?

I said Miske was ****, and I really don't care if you agree, but, you got heated enough to tell me I'm like Trump in that I accuse but never bring proof. I was reminded of this accusation when looking over my very well proven Ray Pearson thread and seeing you loved that thread. That was earlier in the same year you claimed I prove nothing.



So now I will pick on you every single time I prove any goddamn thing.



Because I think it is funny, and that son, is some Trump **** for yer candy.

Unless you want to admit that was a bit much. Then I apologize for being a ****. Until then, it's funny to me and you are an *******, who, I just responded to talking about stuff that isn't even opinion without any proof at all. Hmm. Seems like sometimes folks don't feel the need to prove anything....I wonder if those times might be when talking about who is and isn't an ATG?

****

[QueensburyRules]

- - Marche didn't debunk squat.

While there is no mention of the fight save Eskine, the circumstances he describes = subterfuge, ie heavily coated, shawled, and hatted strangers traveling in the dead of harsh Canadian winter under aliases meeting the Miner Millionaire club to be escorted to their underground Den of Gentlemen's Illicit Entertainment for a private fight away from prying bootlicks, scurvies, and other no accounts such as meddling authorities where they can privately witness a fight for the ages while betting each other fortunes on the action.

Well known JJ was quite active in the pen after having been put in charge of the Recreational facilities where he had several official fights, all KOs as I recall, so he was in excellent nick after he served his year and immediately called out Dempsey. There was enough push that some promoter had arranged the fight in Mexico City, but by then Jack was focused on Wills and Kearns doubtful about the promoter's finances that killed several Wills fights, even after Jack and Doc had their acrimonious fallout...Amen...

[Willie Pep 229]

You can call it a fight, but from where I sit it isn't even. You are a mark.

There is no talking me out of it if I think it's funny because I could not care less if you do not.

There is no proving hmm? Then why you call me Trump over it for son?

Seems like that throws your whole original Miske protection angle out the window huh?

I said Miske was ****, and I really don't care if you agree, but, you got heated enough to tell me I'm like Trump in that I accuse but never bring proof. I was reminded of this accusation when looking over my very well proven Ray Pearson thread and seeing you loved that thread. That was earlier in the same year you claimed I prove nothing.



So now I will pick on you every single time I prove any goddamn thing.



Because I think it is funny, and that son, is some Trump **** for yer candy.

Unless you want to admit that was a bit much. Then I apologize for being a ****. Until then, it's funny to me and you are an *******, who, I just responded to talking about stuff that isn't even opinion without any proof at all. Hmm. Seems like sometimes folks don't feel the need to prove anything....I wonder if those times might be when talking about who is and isn't an ATG?

****

No never say your sorry this would get boring.

I went back and read the Ray Pearson thread- I don't see the connection to our current dispute.

Proving a fight didn't occur is doable, who is, or isn't an ATG is pure opinion.

In regards to Trump . . . your opinion is like the anti vaccine people - fat asses sitting in front of a microphone with an opinion, while my guys are the HOF guys who have all kinds of credentials to go with their opinion. Miske must be an ATG!

Which BTW doesn't actually impress me either in regards to ATGs, I'm just being a 'bit much.'

(The science I listen to.)

In regards to being called out: It is nice to be thought of so often I will keep an eye out for the call outs.

[billeau2]

No never say your sorry this would get boring.

I went back and read the Ray Pearson thread- I don't see the connection to our current dispute.

Proving a fight didn't occur is doable, who is, or isn't an ATG is pure opinion.

In regards to Trump . . . your opinion is like the anti vaccine people - fat asses sitting in front of a microphone with an opinion, while my guys are the HOF guys who have all kinds of credentials to go with their opinion. Miske must be an ATG!

Which BTW doesn't actually impress me either in regards to ATGs, I'm just being a 'bit much.'

(The science I listen to.)

In regards to being called out: It is nice to be thought of so often I will keep an eye out for the call outs.

All I know is after the booster? Queenie Started to make sense!!! And I could feel my RNA tearing apart... it kind of feels like an itch, and you hear a groan, like a building that was about to fall down...

[The Old LefHook]

This fight was no rumor and no joke. It actually happent. I have a copy that is hardly watchable, but you can tell who the participants are. I will be choosing one forumer's name out of a hat to send this to as a proof. If your name is drawn, you will first have to sign a document that forbids you from making the copy public. I may want to go public at a later time, and reserve that right. Stay toont. I am actually writing out the names of people on the History forum, and will literally draw one name from a hat. Stay toont.

[Marchegiano]

- - Marche didn't debunk squat.

While there is no mention of the fight save Eskine, the circumstances he describes = subterfuge, ie heavily coated, shawled, and hatted strangers traveling in the dead of harsh Canadian winter under aliases meeting the Miner Millionaire club to be escorted to their underground Den of Gentlemen's Illicit Entertainment for a private fight away from prying bootlicks, scurvies, and other no accounts such as meddling authorities where they can privately witness a fight for the ages while betting each other fortunes on the action.

Well known JJ was quite active in the pen after having been put in charge of the Recreational facilities where he had several official fights, all KOs as I recall, so he was in excellent nick after he served his year and immediately called out Dempsey. There was enough push that some promoter had arranged the fight in Mexico City, but by then Jack was focused on Wills and Kearns doubtful about the promoter's finances that killed several Wills fights, even after Jack and Doc had their acrimonious fallout...Amen...

Yes, a story, no sources.


Hmm.....who proves what around here

[Marchegiano]

No never say your sorry this would get boring.

I went back and read the Ray Pearson thread- I don't see the connection to our current dispute.

Proving a fight didn't occur is doable, who is, or isn't an ATG is pure opinion.

In regards to Trump . . . your opinion is like the anti vaccine people - fat asses sitting in front of a microphone with an opinion, while my guys are the HOF guys who have all kinds of credentials to go with their opinion. Miske must be an ATG!

Which BTW doesn't actually impress me either in regards to ATGs, I'm just being a 'bit much.'

(The science I listen to.)

In regards to being called out: It is nice to be thought of so often I will keep an eye out for the call outs.

Go back and look at what you asked for proof of.

I said Billy was ****. You said why because black people? I said nope, because he's got a very average resume. Then you went on about how I make accusations with no proof like a ****. Interesting, seems like in subject where proof would matter, and when you pay attention to the **** I say rather than get all pissy over the **** you think I might say, I do in fact prove things.

I think it's doubled up interesting given....what thread from you do you think you ever taught me anything? Hmm, well I got one right here with you all sorts of grateful my ass sat down and did a little work for your benefit. Hmm. Seems like a one-sided relationship where one of us should appreciate the other's work, but, the latter has **** all no reason to not burn that bridge given the former is useful for an opine alone.

I have nothing, at all, to gain from being nice to you. You gain from my work, you have disrespected my work, now when I post my work it will come with at least a little nod, I thought this one was funny to be honest and excepted you to laugh, straight up 100%, but you didn't, so here we are. Probably the next one will be silly too, but, bet yer ****ing ass it will be there.

Why shouldn't I?

[QueensburyRules]

Yes, a story, no sources.


Hmm.....who proves what around here

- - You the same story on the sauces again proves nothing yet again.

Lew provided two sources, the whole impetus of his article...DUH cubed!

I am not wholly convinced, but Lew is compelling whereas you just smelly. The timeline and setting of the fight is impeccable if truth needs additional bolstering.