Did Liston really have a shoulder injury vs Clay? Or a No Mas?

[johnbook]

I see no limitation of Liston throwing lefts, jab etc in his last Rd. Did he quit? A no mas? Because he thought he couldn't possibly win?

We can see when boxers have a genuine injury like that amazing win by Danny Williams. We can see that bump as his shoulder was out of joint. And he had no use of that arm.

Doesn't seem like there was anything wrong with Liston's left arm, or right.

So looks like a straight quit job to me. Whay say you?

[QueensburyRules]

- -Commish doc said it was a minor dislocation or aggravation, but mob fighters don't quit unless being told to quit, it's that simple.

[Clegg]

I think he quit for similar reasons as Duran vs SRL. The intense, intimidating types don't deal well with being mocked like that. All the different rumours around Liston in general in especially his fights with Ali make it hard to know for sure though.

[GhostofDempsey]

My own opinion after reading multiple sources is that he quit in the form of a dive. More than likely ordered by the mob. Even the FBI had their su****ions.

The FBI suspected that a mob connection, Ash Resnick, set up the fix. The paper cites the report, which published information provided by a gambler named Barnett Magids and his dealings with Resnick, the latter being known to have engaged in such dealings before.

Here's the most substantive FBI evidence, from a report in 1966 obtained by the Washington Times.

"On one occasion, Resnick introduced Magids to Sonny Liston at the Thunderbird, [one of the Las Vegas hotels organized crime controlled]," the memo states. "About a week before the Liston and Clay fight in Miami, Resnick called and invited Magids and his wife for two weeks in Florida on Resnick. Magids‘ wife was not interested in going, but Magids decided to go along, and Resnick was going to send him a ticket.

"Two or three days before the fight, Magids called Resnick at the Fontainebleau Hotel in Miami to say he could not come," the memo states. "On this call, he asked Resnick who he liked in the fight, and Resnick said that Liston would knock Clay out in the second round. Resnick suggested he wait until just before the fight to place any bets because the odds may come down.

"At about noon on the day of the fight, [Magids] reached Resnick again by phone, and at this time, Resnick said for him to not make any bets, but just go watch the fight on pay TV and he would know why and that he could not talk further at that time.

"Magids did go see the fight on TV and immediately realized that Resnick knew that Liston was going to lose,” the document states. “A week later, there was an article in Sports Illustrated writing up Resnick as a big loser because of his backing of Liston. Later people 'in the know' in Las Vegas told Magids that Resnick and Liston both reportedly made over $1 million betting against Liston on the fight and that the magazine article was a cover for this."

[johnbook]

Yeah, maf related stuff we all know.

Interesting that no one has commented on my specific points. Clay was not showing eye difficulty until he sat down and got his face wiped with the towel. I can't see it, but it seems to be Dundee right there. And perhaps some NOI people there such as Malcom X noted that too which is why they wanted to go after Dundee.

Be nice if people commenting rewatched the end of Rd 4 and just when Clay started to show eye problems. When DBB put it in is eye he seems to immediately react.

So why didn't Clay react in that in previous Rd when he was interacting with Liston? Instead it appears to be only after getting his face toweled.

[QueensburyRules]

I think he quit for similar reasons as Duran vs SRL.

- -Liston didn't have to take a dump. Duran did. Bad comparison.

[BKM-]

I find it believable. You have to keep in mind that there were several factors at play. First, he had extremely long arms which were also thick and heavy. He was swinging and missing hard shots for many rounds. That is a combination that can jack up your shoulders. He also had age working against him so he was at a bigger risk of that kind of injury.

[Anthony342]

No Mas for sure.

[johnbook]

[QUOTE=Anthony342;n31166724]No Mas for sure.[/Q]

Thanks. You're apparently the 1st person to actually look at the video and comment about what's there instead of generalities on mob or arm length etc., w.o. addressing my points.

[QueensburyRules]

[QUOTE=johnbook;n31166745]

No Mas for sure.[/Q]

Thanks. You're apparently the 1st person to actually look at the video and comment about what's there instead of generalities on mob or arm length etc., w.o. addressing my points.

- -Only points U be addressing is needing to take a dump on a topic been done to death and back again umpteen X.