Alexis Arguello or Wilfredo Gomez

[Rusty Tromboni]

Lets look at Broner. If Broner could make lightweight he might have had some special chops fighting in the pocket and using his power. he simply could not stay in that weight class. Ultimately for Broner, this determined his destiny as a fighter. Broner gave the illusion he has a choice, and he tried to cherry pick weak belts... But all the king's horses and all the King's men, could not put Adrien back together again when Madona showed him a punch from the higher divisions...

A fighter does not always have the option of managing certain things...For every Andre Ward, Arguello there is a Broner.

Once again, you provide some sobriety to the conversation.

I guess there will always be duds. And fighting in an era where you have to climb so many divisions kind of dilutes the sense of accomplishment. Now a days everyone is a champion across multiple divisions. And fighters have more places to hide.

But if you compare a guy like Mayweather to Graham you see how fighters have really worked the system. Mayweather had a cushier start: lengthy, touch-butt amateurs; he could work his way across five weight classes; he got to pick his opponents and terms; the gloves are basically pillows, and the shorts were designed by Steve Urkel.
Graham, probably the second greatest fighter to never win a championship, was the same size and the same talent, but fought as a Welterweight, until he was stone-walled long enough to move to Middleweight.

I am not blaming Arguello (or Spinks, or any individual fighter) for all of that. But it definitely made lesser fighters more profitable. No one talks about Arguello in the same breath as Duran, of course. But have you ever stopped to consider that no one talks about Buchanan like they do Arguello, even though he's the far superior (if less accomplished and less exciting) fighter?

Even Pipino Cuevas was probably pretty close to Arguello in talent. Arguello was more disciplined a professional, and a consummate technician (I think of him and Hopkins as opposite sides of the same card), but Cuevas was a wrecking ball of a fighter... until he ran into Hearns. Shortly after he met w/ Duran. If he had Junior weight divisions ready-made for him to hide out in, he could have furthered his killing spree.

I really liked both fighters when they were fighting. Both fought good fighters but Arguello fought a higher level of competition.

Not related but Arguello was also a respectful but colorful character. It was very hard not to respect and like him.

There's a lot of truth to this: superficially. I am not calling you out, you're just stating the consensus. And it's not completely wrong.

But consider:

1) Arguello never claimed a scalp like prime Zarate. Not even close. Never had that kind of performance even on his best win, against inferior competition.

2) Pintor was probably as good as anyone else Argeullo fought: not as tough as Watt, or as ferocious as Pryor, but a competent and complete fighter.

3) Sanchez is faaar better than anyone Arguello fought. I'd plant him firmly between Pryor and Duran in ability. A lot is made about him dying young, but he was already a great fighter. (I honestly don't know how much of his ability went unrealized). And unlike Gomez being undersized, Arguello finally met a guy his own size in Pryor.

4) Arguello was easy enough to out-box. An old Olivares almost did it... Gomez would have needed to enter the ring with an amputated leg for that fight to be competitive. He murders any version of Olivares, but especially the one Arguello fumbled around with.

5) Gomez doesn't get credit like Arguello because Junior Bantamweight isn't one of the original 8 divisions. But if you've ever wrestled, or worked w/ smaller Boxers, you know that these junior weight divisions are very necessary for smaller fighters. Super Middleweight is the biggest joke in Boxing. But 122 pounds is perfect for a lot of guys.

Look at WMMA: Asia Jedrzejczyk practically kills herself making 115, but is seriously undersized 125 pounds.

The people who've designed weight divisions outside of Wrestling clearly never competed, and definitely never handled smaller fighters.

[billeau2]

Once again, you provide some sobriety to the conversation.

I guess there will always be duds. And fighting in an era where you have to climb so many divisions kind of dilutes the sense of accomplishment. Now a days everyone is a champion across multiple divisions. And fighters have more places to hide.

But if you compare a guy like Mayweather to Graham you see how fighters have really worked the system. Mayweather had a cushier start: lengthy, touch-butt amateurs; he could work his way across five weight classes; he got to pick his opponents and terms; the gloves are basically pillows, and the shorts were designed by Steve Urkel.
Graham, probably the second greatest fighter to never win a championship, was the same size and the same talent, but fought as a Welterweight, until he was stone-walled long enough to move to Middleweight.

I am not blaming Arguello (or Spinks, or any individual fighter) for all of that. But it definitely made lesser fighters more profitable. No one talks about Arguello in the same breath as Duran, of course. But have you ever stopped to consider that no one talks about Buchanan like they do Arguello, even though he's the far superior (if less accomplished and less exciting) fighter?

Even Pipino Cuevas was probably pretty close to Arguello in talent. Arguello was more disciplined a professional, and a consummate technician (I think of him and Hopkins as opposite sides of the same card), but Cuevas was a wrecking ball of a fighter... until he ran into Hearns. Shortly after he met w/ Duran. If he had Junior weight divisions ready-made for him to hide out in, he could have furthered his killing spree.





There's a lot of truth to this: superficially. I am not calling you out, you're just stating the consensus. And it's not completely wrong.

But consider:

1) Arguello never claimed a scalp like prime Zarate. Not even close. Never had that kind of performance even on his best win, against inferior competition.

2) Pintor was probably as good as anyone else Argeullo fought: not as tough as Watt, or as ferocious as Pryor, but a competent and complete fighter.

3) Sanchez is faaar better than anyone Arguello fought. I'd plant him firmly between Pryor and Duran in ability. A lot is made about him dying young, but he was already a great fighter. (I honestly don't know how much of his ability went unrealized). And unlike Gomez being undersized, Arguello finally met a guy his own size in Pryor.

4) Arguello was easy enough to out-box. An old Olivares almost did it... Gomez would have needed to enter the ring with an amputated leg for that fight to be competitive. He murders any version of Olivares, but especially the one Arguello fumbled around with.

5) Gomez doesn't get credit like Arguello because Junior Bantamweight isn't one of the original 8 divisions. But if you've ever wrestled, or worked w/ smaller Boxers, you know that these junior weight divisions are very necessary for smaller fighters. Super Middleweight is the biggest joke in Boxing. But 122 pounds is perfect for a lot of guys.

Look at WMMA: Asia Jedrzejczyk practically kills herself making 115, but is seriously undersized 125 pounds.

The people who've designed weight divisions outside of Wrestling clearly never competed, and definitely never handled smaller fighters.

That point (Bolded) is an interesting and different way of thinking about what makes one excellent in the sport. I applaud the creativity and ability to think of how things compare unconventionally.

You know Egyptology was coopted by the British and French, until they found the Rosetta Stone that allowed them to translate the language. We still cannot translate Mayan Gliffs totally, that is how important that discovery was...It had the three scripts (Hyroglypy, Heriatic, and Demotic) and the rest is history...Thing is not much had been advanced and the scholarship in the field, minus the occasional discovery of a tomb, yada yada, was conservative, and not telling us very much at all.

Wallis Budge the main guy and his line of students controlled a lot of the field and it became apparent that there was no challenge internally to a lot of the understanding established in egyptology. It took a Chinese Government scholar, an outsider, with a different view and understanding to progress Egyptology to the heights it is today. Martin Bernal came out of Columbia University...considered a radical community college by the Budge and his English Oxford University contemporaries lol!

I bring this up because when you start looking at different metrics, you do a great service to the way people think about progress and ability in boxing. Money ball was another...Me and QueenB disagree about how relevant that movement was, but for my money? Just proposing that a metric for clutch hitting was needed was a fantastic idea. Whats more important to a winning baseball team? a guy who has a fantastic on base percentage, a high batting average, or a guy who can get a hit when it counts? this is a rhetorical question...

I used to argue that my favorite player for the Yankees, Thurman Munson, (RIP big guy) was such a great hitter because he was a great clutch hitter! Best catcher not named Johnny Bench!! lol.

[QueensburyRules]

- -As a hitter, Munson easily on par with Hotdog Reggie as far as run production efficiency, but Reggie pretty much a defensive liability and the opposite of a team leader in the mold of a narcissistic anarchist. Thurman off the shelf team leader and immeasurable defensive value in the most physically beat up position in baseball, catcher.

Like many greats in life he died tragically young and has yet to be recognized by the regrettable baseball HOF who have voted far lesser mongrels in by dint of their longevity.

[TBear]

Once again, you provide some sobriety to the conversation.




There's a lot of truth to this: superficially. I am not calling you out, you're just stating the consensus. And it's not completely wrong.

But consider:

1) Arguello never claimed a scalp like prime Zarate. Not even close. Never had that kind of performance even on his best win, against inferior competition.

2) Pintor was probably as good as anyone else Argeullo fought: not as tough as Watt, or as ferocious as Pryor, but a competent and complete fighter.

3) Sanchez is faaar better than anyone Arguello fought. I'd plant him firmly between Pryor and Duran in ability. A lot is made about him dying young, but he was already a great fighter. (I honestly don't know how much of his ability went unrealized). And unlike Gomez being undersized, Arguello finally met a guy his own size in Pryor.

4) Arguello was easy enough to out-box. An old Olivares almost did it... Gomez would have needed to enter the ring with an amputated leg for that fight to be competitive. He murders any version of Olivares, but especially the one Arguello fumbled around with.

5) Gomez doesn't get credit like Arguello because Junior Bantamweight isn't one of the original 8 divisions. But if you've ever wrestled, or worked w/ smaller Boxers, you know that these junior weight divisions are very necessary for smaller fighters. Super Middleweight is the biggest joke in Boxing. But 122 pounds is perfect for a lot of guys.
.

Sure Arguello had troubles with fast runners. He had a combination of heart, power and endurance so most of the time sooner or later he would catch them. I personally don't understand questioning the level of competition he faced. He won his first title at featherweight stopping Rubén Olivares. In his four defenses he faced future champions Rigoberto Riasco and Royal Kobayashi earning the Ring and lineal titles.

Arguello rose to super featherweight and challenged Alfredo Escalera who was making his 12th straight defense.
Arguello himself then made eight defenses and four of the guys he defended against went on to be champion after Alexis moved up.

Again Arguello moved up, this time to lightweight. He went over to the UK to beat Watt. He defended that title four times winning the recognition by Ring magazine as champion. he defeated future champion Ray Mancini and beat Andrew Ganigan in what should have been considered an unification as Ganigan in his previous fight knocked out WBA champion Sean O'Grady.

Not a bad resume in my book.

Note: At least eight of the guys he knocked out in title fights went on to win titles themselves. It is my opinion that beating guys that are good enough to beat other champions after that out weighs victories over former champions that at the end of the journey on a resume. If that is understandable.

[Zaroku]

i got azuma nelson dropping power shots and destroying asprigations of greatness... sal sanchez mopping the floor with all of them. back to back.. maybe even stopping JMM.. definitely stopping lots of clowns..

we live in an era of 12 round fighters

i grew up and was taugh 15 rds was definition defining career defining moments

mancini killing dooo kou kim and other ring deaths cased people to think of safety first...


the hawk aaron pryor on coke stopping everyone.. i am dealing with a lot of punks who even never fought. never bled.. fuvk it.. i feel like throwing them against a wall.. l;o;// dudes..

[OctoberRed]

i got azuma nelson dropping power shots and destroying asprigations of greatness... sal sanchez mopping the floor with all of them. back to back.. maybe even stopping JMM.. definitely stopping lots of clowns..

we live in an era of 12 round fighters

i grew up and was taugh 15 rds was definition defining career defining moments

mancini killing dooo kou kim and other ring deaths cased people to think of safety first...


the hawk aaron pryor on coke stopping everyone.. i am dealing with a lot of punks who even never fought. never bled.. fuvk it.. i feel like throwing them against a wall.. l;o;// dudes..

I def agree on the Hawk, brother!

[Rusty Tromboni]

That point (Bolded) is an interesting and different way of thinking about what makes one excellent in the sport. I applaud the creativity and ability to think of how things compare unconventionally.

You know Egyptology was coopted by the British and French, until they found the Rosetta Stone that allowed them to translate the language. We still cannot translate Mayan Gliffs totally, that is how important that discovery was...It had the three scripts (Hyroglypy, Heriatic, and Demotic) and the rest is history...Thing is not much had been advanced and the scholarship in the field, minus the occasional discovery of a tomb, yada yada, was conservative, and not telling us very much at all.

Wallis Budge the main guy and his line of students controlled a lot of the field and it became apparent that there was no challenge internally to a lot of the understanding established in egyptology. It took a Chinese Government scholar, an outsider, with a different view and understanding to progress Egyptology to the heights it is today. Martin Bernal came out of Columbia University...considered a radical community college by the Budge and his English Oxford University contemporaries lol!

I bring this up because when you start looking at different metrics, you do a great service to the way people think about progress and ability in boxing. Money ball was another...Me and QueenB disagree about how relevant that movement was, but for my money? Just proposing that a metric for clutch hitting was needed was a fantastic idea. Whats more important to a winning baseball team? a guy who has a fantastic on base percentage, a high batting average, or a guy who can get a hit when it counts? this is a rhetorical question...

I used to argue that my favorite player for the Yankees, Thurman Munson, (RIP big guy) was such a great hitter because he was a great clutch hitter! Best catcher not named Johnny Bench!! lol.

your posts are treasure trove of insight. I need to look this guy up pronto. thanks for the props, and the info!

Sure Arguello had troubles with fast runners. He had a combination of heart, power and endurance so most of the time sooner or later he would catch them. I personally don't understand questioning the level of competition he faced. He won his first title at featherweight stopping Rubén Olivares. In his four defenses he faced future champions Rigoberto Riasco and Royal Kobayashi earning the Ring and lineal titles.

Arguello rose to super featherweight and challenged Alfredo Escalera who was making his 12th straight defense.
Arguello himself then made eight defenses and four of the guys he defended against went on to be champion after Alexis moved up.

Again Arguello moved up, this time to lightweight. He went over to the UK to beat Watt. He defended that title four times winning the recognition by Ring magazine as champion. he defeated future champion Ray Mancini and beat Andrew Ganigan in what should have been considered an unification as Ganigan in his previous fight knocked out WBA champion Sean O'Grady.

Not a bad resume in my book.

Note: At least eight of the guys he knocked out in title fights went on to win titles themselves. It is my opinion that beating guys that are good enough to beat other champions after that out weighs victories over former champions that at the end of the journey on a resume. If that is understandable.

tha's a beautiful post. it really does Alexis homge. I don't want to be the ass hole that punches holes in everyone's career. Alexis was great. probably better than GGG p4p.

But he feasted on smaller men.

Gomez probably could have very easily ran through 3 or 4 divisions himself, and it would be a bigger achievement considering he's a smaller man. But 122 fit him nicely. He put prime Zarate through a woodchipper. I really can't think of a performance Arguello had to match that. No one that good went down that easy.

Even Pryor, for all his flaws, flaws that fed into Arguello's strengths, pulled out the win. can you imagine anyone walking into Gomez's wheel-house and living to tell the tale?

i got azuma nelson dropping power shots and destroying asprigations of greatness... sal sanchez mopping the floor with all of them. back to back.. maybe even stopping JMM.. definitely stopping lots of clowns..

we live in an era of 12 round fighters

i grew up and was taugh 15 rds was definition defining career defining moments

mancini killing dooo kou kim and other ring deaths cased people to think of safety first...


the hawk aaron pryor on coke stopping everyone.. i am dealing with a lot of punks who even never fought. never bled.. fuvk it.. i feel like throwing them against a wall.. l;o;// dudes..

Pryor was a great fighter. Head to Head he was a monster. You could call him a poor man's gomez. But he had flaws. Flaws that suited Arguello. But Arguello finally met a guy his own size, who wanted it more. Sure, hanky panky was involved. But lets not compare Pryor to Sanchez: a faaaar better fighter, and one who carried a size advantage into the fight.

Nelson wasn't great, but he measured greatness. Like dempsey said, "to be a champ you need a great punch and have to take a grat punch". He was losing to Gomez until he wasnt. It was still a fine perofrmance by Gomez. I would say he probably got carried away, and lost a fight he rather "easily" could have won.
His partying and his infatuation with his own punching power, they cost him any opportunity of ever winning the Featherweight crown.

[QueensburyRules]

Sure Arguello had troubles with fast runners. He had a combination of heart, power and endurance so most of the time sooner or later he would catch them. I personally don't understand questioning the level of competition he faced. He won his first title at featherweight stopping Rubén Olivares. In his four defenses he faced future champions Rigoberto Riasco and Royal Kobayashi earning the Ring and lineal titles.

Arguello rose to super featherweight and challenged Alfredo Escalera who was making his 12th straight defense.
Arguello himself then made eight defenses and four of the guys he defended against went on to be champion after Alexis moved up.

Again Arguello moved up, this time to lightweight. He went over to the UK to beat Watt. He defended that title four times winning the recognition by Ring magazine as champion. he defeated future champion Ray Mancini and beat Andrew Ganigan in what should have been considered an unification as Ganigan in his previous fight knocked out WBA champion Sean O'Grady.

Not a bad resume in my book.

Note: At least eight of the guys he knocked out in title fights went on to win titles themselves. It is my opinion that beating guys that are good enough to beat other champions after that out weighs victories over former champions that at the end of the journey on a resume. If that is understandable.

- -Elegant and accurate your summation of Alexis as was his sublime boxing style.

You gotta understand this Rusty Bucket feller is filled up to his eyeballs in the PEDs of his era and only posts here to shake that rattle in his noggin.

[Anthony342]

I def agree on the Hawk, brother!

So I guess Aaron Pryor could be the answer to my wasted talent question for who was most talented when wasted.

[OctoberRed]

So I guess Aaron Pryor could be the answer to my wasted talent question for who was most talented when wasted.

Less talent wasted than Anorak.