Fights Johnson never made

[travestyny]

OK - but there is one problem, the fight didn't happen. I think the money just wasn't there because the fight was a racial risk. I think we are arguing about promotional hype and a photo opt.

It doesn't actually speak to whether JJ was 'ducking' ( I hate that word.) Langford, that's the kind of stuff that happens City by city back then. How many times today are fights on, only not to be on, and then sometimes on again.

Paradoxically in boxing you really can't separate the hype from real intent until the fight actually happens.

That's what makes your Dempsey-Chicago argument more valid, that Dempsey actually signed and then publicly reneged. But most of the time these offers are just hype. We place too much value on all these "public offers" they all need to be taken with a grain of salt. Most are just hype to get some press ink.

My argument here was never that this instance was the be all end all of Johnson/Langford. It was only meant to say that this is a particular instance in which Johnson agreed to fight Langford and they both made an effort to get it done, but it failed to come off. I have no doubt that they wanted it to happen (Langford more than Johnson), but it just wasn't able to get done.

So I agree with you. I think these fights had a difficult time getting made clearly for the reason that Jack Johnson brought up repeatedly. People wanted him to fight a white contender and didn't care much to see him against a black contender, and that's why the money wasn't there. He knew that, and it was his major concern when trying to put these fights together. In fact, I don't know if I included the proper page or an article that stated it, but it says specifically that while discussing this fight with Langford and Woodman, Johnson made it clear that he thought the fight wasn't going to sell. If it were going to sell, I think Langford and Woodman raise that money quite easily.

Actually yes, it's the page I already posted. Says he doesn't think a fight with two blacks will draw well. I think we all get that (except GhostofDempsey for his own agenda). But you do make a valid point with France. I know that by 1913 the "big blacks" were fading, but I think the Langford/Johnson fight should have been there if anywhere. The thing is Langford had lost to Gunboat Smith and it was stated that his fight with Jeannette wouldn't be as highly attended because of that in the papers. It was projected that Langford/Jeannette would pull in 30,000 people if Langford didn't lose to Smith, but around 20,000 since he did. I'm not sure how many actually did attend. I know it pulled in $11,370 while somewhat competing with Johnson and Jim Johnson (the day before) which pulled in around $5,179. Some people think it was that the latter fight was lackluster which affected Jeannette/Langford. But those numbers are pretty low.

Johnson vs. Moran pulled in 30,000 people and $40,000. That's more than I thought. I wonder what Johnson/Langford would have pulled in. When I began this post I was thinking Johnson/Langford in Paris would pull in more money than Johnson/Moran, but now I'm not so sure. That just might be a case of us knowing how important Langford turned out to be in the grand scheme of things. In any event, I do think that was the right place for the fight. Perhaps not the right time. A bit earlier...?? Or if Langford wouldn't have lost to Smith perhaps...? Johnson was coming off of a poor performance as well, and I think even in France they were thinking he was ripe for the picking of a white hopeful.

[ShoulderRoll]

Travesty has done a ton of research on this and has the newspaper articles to back up what he says.

If people are going to debate the opposite stance from him then it would be nice if they at least have similar evidence to point to. Don't come with weak arguments.

[Dr. Z]

No!

it said 24 hours.

No!

Langford should say and do anything to try and get that fight. That's the nature of the business.

Let me get on record here. If I was handlling Johndon I would never have him waste a fight on a Black challenger. That's just throwing away money

McVea, Langford, Jeannette would be lucky if I let them appear on the undercard. I wouldn't want the card to turn too black; lose White patrons that way.

It's PRIZE fighting and they didn't being enough to the table.

The only viable venue/location for Johnson vs. (any one of) the Holly Three was Paris, 1913.

Then and there it could have happened, why didn't it?

Yes, and England where he backed out of a signed contract to fight Langford, Australia under HD McIntosh, Russia, the USA. Johnson NEVER wanted t fight them and despite multiple offers, he didn't. For Shame. Joe Jeanette summed up the situation perfectly. " When Jack became champion he forgot about his own friends and used the color line against his own people " - Joe Jeannette.

OUCH.

[Dr. Z]

Travesty has done a ton of research on this and has the newspaper articles to back up what he says.

If people are going to debate the opposite stance from him then it would be nice if they at least have similar evidence to point to. Don't come with weak arguments.

The guy is a zealout. I produce direct quotes and article with links so others can use them, He cherry picks what he wants you to see an ignores the evidence. Sure Johnson will sign,..once he's sure the fight is NOT going to happen, and sure he will make no effort to move the fight to another venue. Sure he will say I need more money than this, even though the actually fights he did sign for were often less than what he was asking for.

[travestyny]

The guy is a zealout. I produce direct quotes and article with links so others can use them, He cherry picks what he wants you to see an ignores the evidence. Sure Johnson will sign,..once he's sure the fight is NOT going to happen, and sure he will make no effort to move the fight to another venue. Sure he will say I need more money than this, even though the actually fights he did sign for were often less than what he was asking for.

Yea, and all of the direct articles that you posted have been disputed by facts. I guess you missed that part.

Your article about 1910, Johnson accepted.


Your article about the NSC....there is still no contract. You told me Clay was going to come and reveal it. Still waiting for that.


Meanwhile, 3 instances of Johnson accepting here....including one regarding one of your articles, foolio And you duck it. So good work, old chum. Thanks for pointing us to another instance where Johnson agreed to the fight and it didn't come off. I can always count on you to goof up and bolster my argument

[GhostofDempsey]

The guy is a zealout. I produce direct quotes and article with links so others can use them, He cherry picks what he wants you to see an ignores the evidence. Sure Johnson will sign,..once he's sure the fight is NOT going to happen, and sure he will make no effort to move the fight to another venue. Sure he will say I need more money than this, even though the actually fights he did sign for were often less than what he was asking for.

Same here, I've provided countless sources, they are either dismissed or ignored. There has been direct testimony from the fighters, boxing insiders, managers, etc., that have all stated Johnson wanted no part of Langford once he hit his prime, same with Jeannette and McVey. Travesty called them all liars. He's willing to die on that hill defending a guy who never offered them their title shots.

He also holds Dempsey to a double standard. When money was not delivered to Dempsey to fight Wills in their first two contract negotiations the fight was off. Yet he wants to let Johnson off the hook for making financial demands that Johnson knew would not be met. At least Dempsey made legitimate offers and gave ample time for Wills people to deliver. He then wants to use anonymous sources to convince us it was all Dempsey's fault. I can post several news articles that were written over a 100 years ago that claimed Johnson was all set to fight someone for a title only to discover it was made up bullshyt by the press. Hell, he tried quoting an article once by McKetrick, in an effort to support Jeannette, but McKetrick was his manager, so of course the article would have been biased in his favor.

[travestyny]

He's willing to die on that hill defending a guy who never offered them their title shots.

Says the guy who has to duck me on this very statement. Did he agree to fight Langford 3x for the title, and Jennette in NYC for the title. You want to give a straight answer or just duck?

If you had a comeback you wouldn't duck the evidence. It's easy to prove that you are lying.

He also holds Dempsey to a double standard. When money was not delivered to Dempsey to fight Wills in their first two contract negotiations the fight was off. Yet he wants to let Johnson off the hook for making financial demands that Johnson knew would not be met. At least Dempsey made legitimate offers and gave ample time for Wills people to deliver. He then wants to use anonymous sources to convince us it was all Dempsey's fault. I can post several news articles that were written over a 100 years ago that claimed Johnson was all set to fight someone for a title only to discover it was made up bullshyt by the press. Hell, he tried quoting an article once by McKetrick, in an effort to support Jeannette, but McKetrick was his manager, so of course the article would have been biased in his favor.

Dempsey made legitimate offers???? LMAO. You are off your meds, kids.

1. What financial demand did Johnson make that he knew wouldn't be accepted? Please explain, because in this thread we can see that Langford agreed with the financial demand and in his own words said that he would meet the demand.

2. You know I have the certified check that was waiting for Dempsey to fight Wills in my possession. If you need to see it for the 8th time, just let me know instead of ducking.

3. You can post articles that say he wasn't set to fight in Australia and wasn't set to fight Jennette in New York. And wasn't set to fight at Obrien's club? And wasn't set to fight after the meeting with Langford? Then post them! Have at it!

4. I don't need McKetrick to back me up on Joe Jennette. The other fight on the card went on at the same venue and was for....the championship. Which you said was impossible. You can't respond to me because you know you'll be exposed.



Keep ducking me, Ghost. You know if you don't, you'll be embarrassed.

[Dr. Z]

Jack Johnson:

"I'd fight a bear for $30K"

Reporter:

"Will you fight Sam Langford?"

Jack Johnson:

"He ain't no bear, he's a wildcat!"

Fort Wayne Sentinel, 6 Jun 1911

Nice quote.

Even Travestyny must admit that Johnson loved having money! The problem he is he wasn't willing to fight Jeannette or Langford to obtain it. He knows it, and we all know it. Using a failed promoter bid to excuse numerous opportunities as an attempt to excuse numerous back outs won't fool anyone familiar with this topic.

[Dr. Z]

Same here, I've provided countless sources, they are either dismissed or ignored. There has been direct testimony from the fighters, boxing insiders, managers, etc., that have all stated Johnson wanted no part of Langford once he hit his prime, same with Jeannette and McVey. Travesty called them all liars. He's willing to die on that hill defending a guy who never offered them their title shots.

He also holds Dempsey to a double standard. When money was not delivered to Dempsey to fight Wills in their first two contract negotiations the fight was off. Yet he wants to let Johnson off the hook for making financial demands that Johnson knew would not be met. At least Dempsey made legitimate offers and gave ample time for Wills people to deliver. He then wants to use anonymous sources to convince us it was all Dempsey's fault. I can post several news articles that were written over a 100 years ago that claimed Johnson was all set to fight someone for a title only to discover it was made up bullshyt by the press. Hell, he tried quoting an article once by McKetrick, in an effort to support Jeannette, but McKetrick was his manager, so of course the article would have been biased in his favor.

100% Yes he will ignore sources. LOL, they don't suit his agenda. A historian is supposed to embrace to facts. He cherry picks what didn't happen without explaining why the fight could not have been made elsewhere numerous times when offered. He skirts offers of 50k and 100k, then posts one failed bid as if to say see it wasn't his fault. Doesn't he relies how silly he looks? Johnson if he wanted too could have fought ANYONE in France, England, Australia, some parts of the Western Hemisphere, and , Russia. He also think Johnson words when the situation was golden for him don't count. We've already been over the signed contract to fight Langford that was not honored.

Johnson got Ko'd in Cuba, didn't he? Sure sure Langford and Jeanette couldn't win in 1915, 1914, or 1913. HAHAHA.. Look Johnson had his hands full in his prime, drawing with O'brien a 160 pound man getting KNOCKED OUT in an ex match in 1909 vs Gunboat Smith, who deserved a title shot but never getting one, and getting floored and hurt by his own admission by a crude Ketchel. 1909. Johnson's prime when he was 30-31. Just imagine what Langford, Jeannette, or Mcvey might have done then?! Surely they were better than the 1909 versions of the long in the tooth O'Brien who out jabbed Johnson , the novice GunBoat Smith who TKO'd him in 4 rounds, exhibition match or not, and a curde middle in Ketchel. That is to any sane boxing fan or historian, which Trsvestyny is not.

Now he's trying to spin out of things by changing the topic of the thread to Dempsey. What about Langford, Wills, McVey, Smith, and McCarthy ever getting title shots from Johnson when he was champion, or after he was champion? I bet he has some funny excuses as these fights never happened.

[GhostofDempsey]

Says the guy who has to duck me on this very statement. Did he agree to fight Langford 3x for the title, and Jennette in NYC for the title. You want to give a straight answer or just duck?

If you had a comeback you wouldn't duck the evidence. It's easy to prove that you are lying.




Dempsey made legitimate offers???? LMAO. You are off your meds, kids.

1. What financial demand did Johnson make that he knew wouldn't be accepted? Please explain, because in this thread we can see that Langford agreed with the financial demand and in his own words said that he would meet the demand.

2. You know I have the certified check that was waiting for Dempsey to fight Wills in my possession. If you need to see it for the 8th time, just let me know instead of ducking.

3. You can post articles that say he wasn't set to fight in Australia and wasn't set to fight Jennette in New York. And wasn't set to fight at Obrien's club? And wasn't set to fight after the meeting with Langford? Then post them! Have at it!

4. I don't need McKetrick to back me up on Joe Jennette. The other fight on the card went on at the same venue and was for....the championship. Which you said was impossible. You can't respond to me because you know you'll be exposed.



Keep ducking me, Ghost. You know if you don't, you'll be embarrassed.

We have all been over this time and again. The answers to your redundant questions are all in our posts, from Johnson's short notice to come up with $30K, to then insisting any man who wants to fight him has to have $70K, to changing terms and conditions at the last hour like he did to McIntosh, to tearing up signed contracts to fight Langford knowing full well he was going to defeat little Tommy Burns. As well as other offers. You keep chasing your tail in circles and expect the rest of us to follow. Go back and read the HUNDREDS of posts you've made on these topics and stop freebasing your meds.