Fights Johnson never made

[GhostofDempsey]

In 1914 the NSC offered Johnson £6000, which was approximately $30,000, to face Langford. Johnson called the offer "ridiculous" and rejected it. (Townsville Daily Bulletin, 17th Feb 1914)

French promoter Theodore Vienne says he offered Johnson $25,000 and then $30,000 to meet Langford in Paris. Johnson turned him down. Johnson's continual refusal to meet the best challengers led to the French Boxing Federation stripping him of the title (Winnipeg Tribune, 27th Dec 1913)

McIntosh made a series of offers to Johnson: $60,000 to fight Langford, McVey and Jeannette in Australia (NYT 9 Dec 1912); $30,000 for an unnamed opponent that the author presumes to be Langford (NYT 26th June 1912); $40,000 for Langford and McVey with $5000 expenses and a $10,000 forfeit (NYT 9th August 1912). Then there was a reported $100,000 to fight Langford and Jeannette in Australia and Flynn in Paris (NYT Oct 12 1912)

[travestyny]

In 1914 the NSC offered Johnson £6000, which was approximately $30,000, to face Langford. Johnson called the offer "ridiculous" and rejected it. (Townsville Daily Bulletin, 17th Feb 1914)

False. You tried this before in the other thread. So you're just going to keep trying it, huh?

Proof that the amount is wrong:

Cc0CME.png

And not only is the amount wrong, I'm pretty sure this is the total purse...for both fighters. Percentage to winner and loser.

I
French promoter Theodore Vienne says he offered Johnson $25,000 and then $30,000 to meet Langford in Paris. Johnson turned him down. Johnson's continual refusal to meet the best challengers led to the French Boxing Federation stripping him of the title (Winnipeg Tribune, 27th Dec 1913)

Did he? Let's see the offer. Feel free to post it up. I remember there being an offer that wasn't for that full amount, but a percentage of it for the winner. So feel free to post the details.

I
McIntosh made a series of offers to Johnson: $60,000 to fight Langford, McVey and Jeannette in Australia (NYT 9 Dec 1912); $30,000 for an unnamed opponent that the author presumes to be Langford (NYT 26th June 1912); $40,000 for Langford and McVey with $5000 expenses and a $10,000 forfeit (NYT 9th August 1912). Then there was a reported $100,000 to fight Langford and Jeannette in Australia and Flynn in Paris (NYT Oct 12 1912)

We already know he accepted the Australia fight. Ho hum.......this is boring now. But feel free to keep trying.

[GhostofDempsey]

So many opportunities for JJ to do the right thing yet he never gave any of them a title shot. Oh wait, they were all liars, that’s right.

[travestyny]

So many opportunities for JJ to do the right thing yet he never gave any of them a title shot. Oh wait, they were all liars, that’s right.

So many opportunities for you to step up and prove those three acceptances didn't happen. You failed



Feel free to keep posting the lies you've told in the past tho. It's easy for me to shoot them down. You know...because you tried them already in the past.


It must really hurt your feelings that Johnson agreed to fight Jeannette, agreed to fight McVey, agreed to fight Langford 3 times, and it's been proven that his quip about drawing the color line was a joke. I know you have nothing left now. So sad

[GhostofDempsey]

Ignored sources in a quest for the last word. LMAO! Typical.

Johnson had a credibility problem. One of his other excuses for ducking them was his insistence that nobody would pay to see two black fighters in a title fight. Yet, Langford, McVey and Jeannette all fought one another in front of sold out venues dozens of times. Another example of Johnson throwing shade and drawing the color line while champion with one exception that was a cherry pick gone horribly wrong.

[travestyny]

Ignored sources in a quest for the last word. LMAO! Typical.

Johnson had a credibility problem. One of his other excuses for ducking them was his insistence that nobody would pay to see two black fighters in a title fight. Yet, Langford, McVey and Jeannette all fought one another in front of sold out venues dozens of times. Another example of Johnson throwing shade and drawing the color line while champion with one exception that was a cherry pick gone horribly wrong.

Ignored sources? When did that happen?

Like you ignoring the three times he agreed to fight? Is that what you are referring to? Did he agree to fight these guys? Yes or no? The sources here say he did. Prove that they were made up. I'll wait.

We all know that you are biased and dishonest because you still refuse to admit that he agreed to fight Joe Jeannette for the title, which is the clearest example because it was signed, sealed, and delivered to the NY Commission.

If you want to have a conversation about it, stop ducking. If you want to keep ducking, then cry yourself to sleep about it for all I care. The proof is plain to see.

[travestyny]

By the way, did you know that Jack Johnson also agreed to fight Harry Wills?

So that means, in the least:

Jack Johnson agreed to fight Joe Jeannette for the title.
Jack Johnson agreed to fight Sam McVey after becoming champion.
Jack Johnson agreed to fight Sam Langford three times after becoming champion.
Jack Johnson agreed to fight Harry Wills in the twilight of his career.


Yo, Ghost. How does that compare to Jack Dempsey?

Dempsey admits to being afraid of Sam Langford -- refused to fight him.
Dempsey runs away from Joe Jeannette in New York City. Refused to fight him.
Dempsey makes a fake effort to fight Wills in NY and then breaks a contract for Wills in Chicago. Ducked him for years *according to some of your own sources.*
Dempsey refuses to fight Jack Johnson. I can give him a pass for this one, as Johnson was in the twilight of his career. Though he did fight sickly dudes with no qualms.


Plus Jack Johnson fought all of these guys except Wills at some point in his career. Dempsey...wouldn't go near a black fighter in a real match since the last one broke three of his ribs and he received what even he thought was a gift draw.

Am I lying about any of that? If so, let me know.



Oh, and I haven't forgotten about you, Dr. Z. Didn't your boy Jeffries refuse to fight the same young Sam McVey that you were talking shlt about on Jack Johnson's resume? He sure did. He sure did.

[Willie Pep 229]

I'm going to go ahead and say out loud that if at the end of that negotiation Sam Langford agreed to the terms, then he agreed to the terms.


It's called being a man of your word. They negotiated, came to an agreement, shook on it, and even took photos together at the end. If he couldn't live up to the agreement, he shouldn't have agreed . That's how it works. You can't blame Jack Johnson for that. It's not like he pulled a fast one on Sam and Joe Woodman. They were both there and demanding that Johnson come up with the money immediately after they post it as well.


As for Paris, I can't help you brotha. I can't just make up things out of the blue. I can only go by what we have. Perhaps it was nothing more than as much as they would have drawn in Paris, a white fighter would have drawn more....? I really don't know. I'll tell you what though. I wish he would have fought these guys as much as all of you do. I really do. But to say that he never offered them fights for the championship is provably false.

I never said he didn't offer them fights that was someone, again.

I said and still say the New York offer was disingenuous there was no way Langford could raise that kind of money that fast.

I believe that the Paris crowd would have preferred Jeannette or McVea over a white guy. The French are cultural bigots but not racists.

Many American Black performers found a home in France often performing before adoring crowds.

I am not in the group that is claiming JJ ducked these guys because he was scare of them. ( Which always seems, when fights didn't happen, to be the go to argument on this forum) I'm saying the fights just weren't viable in the USA, economically, socially, or politically.

But I see that one particular offer to Langford as being disingenuous as Kearns' repeated offers to Wills. Neither actually looks like they wanted the fight and made the conditions unreasonable.

How many times did Wills take the bait in 1922 and end up bring used? (Three times actually.)

Don't go blaming Langford for trying his hardest to get the fight. Of course he did. It was probably three of worst days of his life when no one would step up with the money. Johnson held all the cards it was his fight to make. Langford had no leverage at all. Stop saying he reneged that's absurd and unfair.

Johnson looks to be as big a prick as Kearns was -- but once again, if I was handling JJ I don't take those fights anyway.

Tough fights with high economic risks. An all black crowd wouldn't be able to generate the necessary revenue and it might very well been impossible to find a venue or a white audience. JJ had burned a lot of bridges.

I believe after Jeffries White people (USA) were only interesting in seeing JJ beaten by a white man and wouldn't have jelled to a Black-Black fight. It had to happen overseas.

Paris was the real opportunity - that's when it should have happened.

And of course it did but with the wrong Black guy.

[travestyny]

I never said he didn't offer them fights that was someone, again.

I said and still say the New York offer was disingenuous there was no way Langford could raise that kind of money that fast.

I believe that the Paris crowd would have preferred Jeannette or McVea over a white guy. The French are cultural bigots but not racists.

Many American Black performers found a home in France often performing before adoring crowds.

I am not in the group that is claiming JJ ducked these guys because he was scare of them. ( Which always seems, when fights didn't happen, to be the go to argument on this forum) I'm saying the fights just weren't viable in the USA, economically, socially, or politically.

But I see that one particular offer to Langford as being disingenuous as Kearns' repeated offers to Wills. Neither actually looks like they wanted the fight and made the conditions unreasonable.

How many times did Wills take the bait in 1922 and end up bring used? (Three times actually.)

Don't go blaming Langford for trying his hardest to get the fight. Of course he did. It was probably three of worst days of his life when no one would step up with the money. Johnson held all the cards it was his fight to make. Langford had no leverage at all. Stop saying he reneged that's absurd and unfair.

Johnson looks to be as big a prick as Kearns was -- but once again, if I was handling JJ I don't take those fights anyway.

Tough fights with high economic risks. An all black crowd wouldn't be able to generate the necessary revenue and it might very well been impossible to find a venue or a white audience. JJ had burned a lot of bridges.

I believe after Jeffries White people (USA) were only interesting in seeing JJ beaten by a white man and wouldn't have jelled to a Black-Black fight. It had to happen overseas.

Paris was the real opportunity - that's when it should have happened.

And of course it did but with the wrong Black guy.

Don't get me wrong. I don't blame Langford for anything.


But your assessment makes no sense to me. Jack Johnson and Sam Langford agreed that they would meet and come to an agreement about how to make the fight. They met and came to an agreement. Langford and Woodman wouldn't have agreed to the terms if they didn't think they could handle it. Unfortunately, they couldn't make it happen.

Why would you blame Jack Johnson for that? Do you realize that Sam and Joe initially wanted Jack Johnson to post the $20,000 first? So were they pricks, too? He explained to them that as champion, it was his duty to match the offer after they go first.

Someone had to go first. You challenge the champion. They shook hands on it believing that it was a fair deal, I assume. They took pictures together after the meeting was over and left on good terms. I don't see the problem.

[Willie Pep 229]

Don't get me wrong. I don't blame Langford for anything.


But your assessment makes no sense to me. Jack Johnson and Sam Langford agreed that they would meet and come to an agreement about how to make the fight. They met and came to an agreement. Langford and Woodman wouldn't have agreed to the terms if they didn't think they could handle it. Unfortunately, they couldn't make it happen.

Why would you blame Jack Johnson for that? Do you realize that Sam and Joe initially wanted Jack Johnson to post the $20,000 first? So were they pricks, too? He explained to them that as champion, it was his duty to match the offer after they go first.

Someone had to go first. You challenge the champion. They shook hands on it believing that it was a fair deal, I assume. They took pictures together after the meeting was over and left on good terms. I don't see the problem.

OK - but there is one problem, the fight didn't happen. I think the money just wasn't there because the fight was a racial risk. I think we are arguing about promotional hype and a photo opt.

It doesn't actually speak to whether JJ was 'ducking' ( I hate that word.) Langford, that's the kind of stuff that happens City by city back then. How many times today are fights on, only not to be on, and then sometimes on again.

Paradoxically in boxing you really can't separate the hype from real intent until the fight actually happens.

That's what makes your Dempsey-Chicago argument more valid, that Dempsey actually signed and then publicly reneged. But most of the time these offers are just hype. We place too much value on all these "public offers" they all need to be taken with a grain of salt. Most are just hype to get some press ink.