Marvin Hagler Overrated Legacy?

[GJC]

I set no specific time frame for that point,Which is why I mentioned both Obelmejias and Hamsho,Who recieved their title shot rematches two years apart from one another

TheGreatA pointed out that they were both mandatory contenders of which I then pointed out so was Herol Graham in 1986





I wish you had actually debunked them in the frazier thread and this one and then what you claim may have some legitimacy to it but you've already proven yourself a delusional fanboy who couldn't make a decent argument to save his life

I don't agree but can see you can make an argument with Hamsho's re match, the Obelmejias re match in 82 is way too early for Kinchen, Schuler or Graham to be considered a more credible challenger.

[BennyST]

Same copout argument time and time again,Using later fights to use the argument that he was never in such a position to begin with,His first big fight was against Murray Sutherland in november of 1983.By the time Hagler was defending his title for the second time in a pointless rematch with Hamsho,Kinchen was 33-0-2 and by the time Mugabi fought Hgaler he was 25-0 so I'm not sure with this no experience nonsense comes from.

So had Kinchen beaten Schuler then he would have been elevated to proper contender status would he? If that was the case then why was James Schuler never elevated to such status?

So had Kinchen beaten Schuler then he would have been elevated to proper contender status would he? If that was the case then why was James Schuler never elevated to such status? You are the one using wrong timing,Stop using later losses to fit you own time frame

Which is funny because Herol Graham happened to be Hagler's mandatory challenger for the WBA belt.

I suggest you look closer at Obelmejias glorious title run at 168 before making such a comment,The man was a bum

Hagler never become a big money fighter until after he fought Hearns,Hearns was the main draw going into that fight,Hagler had never been a draw prior to that

Ok, from the top down: First, you are saying they should have fought during 84, 85 or 86 right? There was no other time they could have fought. Before then there were many more fighters ranked well ahead of those guuys all of whom Hagler fought.

You say that Kinchen and Shuler, as well as Graham were more deserving than Hamsho right. The problem is you are still missing the point here. Hagler fought all his top contenders whereas they never even reached the stage where they were in the top spot to fight Hagler. They never got to that spot! Like I said in my first post, you could certainly make a case for Graham, though you'll see why he still didn't get it. To be explained soon.

Kinchen got to be first ranked in the top ten around the end of 1983 right? Before that though around 81, 82 into 83 the top guys were Obelmejias, Sibson, Hamsho, Hearns, Scypion, Fletcher etc. At the start of 83 Kinchen still was unranked and Shuler had only just cracked the top ten still well under the top guys. So, during all of 83 Shuler and Kinchen just would not have come up as viable, top opponents for Hagler. When they finally got to be ranked high enough around the start of 84, they were still never in the top spot. Hamsho, like I said previously, was still ranked above both of them by beating Bobby Czyz and Wilfred Benitez.

In 1985 Shuler and Kinchen had fought each other and Kinchen lost, which basically put him out of the running. So, that leaves Shuler in a possible spot for contention. By this stage though Hagler was only looking for the big money fights with the top guys. Even so Shuler was still never ranked in the top spot.

Hamsho got the title shot in 1984 because he was the top ranked guy ok? Then the big money fight between Hearns and Hagler, which had been building up for years already got signed for 85 ok? Hagl;er would only fight once a year at this stage, and John Mugabi was the top ranked contender by now. He was also undefeated and highly popular with his 100% KO ratio.

See, if Hagler had fought Shuler or Kinchen instead of Mugabi you and everyone else would have said Mugabi would have knocked him out! Everyone was calling for that fight, not Shuler or Kinchen. But, Hearns and Hagler got it on in 85, which left 86 open. Mugabi had already risen to the top spot by now and was highly popular and so this became the big match instead of Shuler, who would go on to get KO'd by Hearns anyway and Kinchen during this year would get beaten by Barkley anyway, so again, he never got the big win that propelled him to the top spot. After the Mugabi match the Leonard fight was way too big for any other match so that was that and the end of his career.

To recap: During 81 Hagler fought Antuofermo for revenge, Hamsho and Obelmejias ranked number two and number six respectively. During 82 he fought Lee, who was a replacement, and Obelmejias in the rematch. Next in 1983 he would fight Sibson, Scypion and Duran, Sibson and Scypion both being top ranked guys still way above Kinchen, Shuler and Graham who were not even ranked yet and Duran who was a big money fight. 1984 rolls around and by this stage Hagler is looking for the biggest money fights he can get and neither Shuler or Kinchen is ranked number one anyway. But, Fletcher who is ranked number one has a fight with Roldan to get the shot at Hagler. Roldan knocks him out in six rounds, so Hagler starts off 84 against Roldan whom he beats. The end of 84 sees Hagler fight Hamsho who was the top ranked guy for his belts as mentioned previously by eating Benitez and Czyz. The Hearns fight is next, then the Mugabi fight then Leonard.

Neither Kinchen or Shuler were ever in range to fight, neither were they big enough names. The main reason is still there were guys that were always above them though and Hagler did fight them. Graham didn't even become ranked highly until 1985, at which point Hagler was only fighting once a year and only the big money fights. None of these fights were ever going to happen.

[BennyST]

Ok, that last post was really long. I'll simplify greatly here for those that don't want to read it:

Hagler became champ in 80. During 81 Dwight Davison was the top rated guy to the titles. He got beat by Sibson who Hagler fought and beat. 82 Fletcher was the top rated MW and he got beaten by Roldan in the fight to get a shot at Hagler. 83 it was Hamsho who had beat Benitez and Czyz and who Hagler beat too. 84, Hearns was rated 1 and Mugabi 2. Hearns and Hagler fought, then later when Mugabi was number those two fought. He fought all the guys who got to the top spot, none of the guys you are suggesting ever got there. Take into that each Hagler by 83/84 would take six months to get done and that in 85/86 and 87 he only fought once against the biggest possible name.

[VintageBoxing_1]

Hagler had fought alot of avoided contenders on his rise up to the Middleweight crown fighters like Willie Monroe, and Bobby Watts. When Graham was his top contender, Hagler was only really interested in big money showdowns. And Graham was never a big draw, even in his home country.

Graham was a extremely high risk for Hagler and not much of a reward, it still would of been a very interesting fight do. Bredan Ingle always thought Graham would of defeated Hagler had they fought.

[sonnyboyx2]

Ok, that last post was really long. I'll simplify greatly here for those that don't want to read it:

Hagler became champ in 80. During 81 Dwight Davison was the top rated guy to the titles. He got beat by Sibson who Hagler fought and beat. 82 Fletcher was the top rated MW and he got beaten by Roldan in the fight to get a shot at Hagler. 83 it was Hamsho who had beat Benitez and Czyz and who Hagler beat too. 84, Hearns was rated 1 and Mugabi 2. Hearns and Hagler fought, then later when Mugabi was number those two fought. He fought all the guys who got to the top spot, none of the guys you are suggesting ever got there. Take into that each Hagler by 83/84 would take six months to get done and that in 85/86 and 87 he only fought once against the biggest possible name.

yes you are correct, But Marvin Haglers career as champion has to be called to account because his opponents were very mediocre indeed, Yes Hagler is one of the "FAB 4" yet his performances against the other 3 can also be scrutinized -- Hagler salvaged a `one point`victory over former Lightweight King Roberto Duran by winning the final round of their fight.. He was then IMO very fortunate that Thomas Hearns broke his famous right-hand in the opening round to win via KO3 and he refused to grant Hearns the rematch which The Hitman yearned for, Hagler was then soundly beaten by comebacking Ray Leonard...Hagler IMO does not measure-up to the other Middleweight greats, Jones Jr, Hopkins, Toney, Monzon, Zale, Cerdan, Ketchel, Walker, Robinson. Grebb.

[GJC]

yes you are correct, But Marvin Haglers career as champion has to be called to account because his opponents were very mediocre indeed, Yes Hagler is one of the "FAB 4" yet his performances against the other 3 can also be scrutinized -- Hagler salvaged a `one point`victory over former Lightweight King Roberto Duran by winning the final round of their fight.. He was then IMO very fortunate that Thomas Hearns broke his famous right-hand in the opening round to win via KO3 and he refused to grant Hearns the rematch which The Hitman yearned for, Hagler was then soundly beaten by comebacking Ray Leonard...Hagler IMO does not measure-up to the other Middleweight greats, Jones Jr, Hopkins, Toney, Monzon, Zale, Cerdan, Ketchel, Walker, Robinson. Grebb.

I'm a huge duran fan but that fight wasn't as close as it was scored, good effort from duran and hagler was poor but I made it more comfortable than the judges. Hearns broke his hand it happens he lost end of. As for saying leonard soundly beat hagler watch the fight not the highlights. As for saying hagler doesn't measure up to the other great mws well Zale certainly fought in a stronger era only problem was he didn't fight hardly any of them.

[JAB5239]

Hagler IMO does not measure-up to the other Middleweight greats, Jones Jr, Hopkins, Toney, Monzon, Zale, Cerdan, Ketchel, Walker, Robinson. Grebb.

Jones and Toney shouldn't even be mentioned amongst these names when talking about the middleweight division.

Haglers middleweight resume is better than Hopkins, Walker, Zale and arguably Ketchel and Cerdan.

I don't understand how you could imagine that Hagler does not measure up to these fighters.