Top 10 welterweights?

[JAB5239]

I just threw this list together on a whim with absolutely zero research, besides the knowledge I already have, after another poster claimed Hearns wasn't even a top 20 welterweight. Is this a credible list? If not, who goes, who stays and who rates where? Discuss.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Ray Leonard
3. Tommy Hearns
4. Jose Napoles
5. Emile Griffith
6. Charley Burley
7. Henry armstrong
8. Barney Ross
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Holman Williams

[GJC]

I just threw this list together on a whim with absolutely zero research, besides the knowledge I already have, after another poster claimed Hearns wasn't even a top 20 welterweight. Is this a credible list? If not, who goes, who stays and who rates where? Discuss.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Ray Leonard
3. Tommy Hearns
4. Jose Napoles
5. Emile Griffith
6. Charley Burley
7. Henry armstrong
8. Barney Ross
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Holman Williams

Good list, I know Holman Williams fought at welter but I have him in my mind as a middle so I'd probably drop him. I'd probably have Armstrong in 2nd spot and Gavilan higher. Think Basilio and Mickey Walker should figure but then its a matter of who to drop which isn't easy. And for people even older than me Tommy Ryan should be in the mix.
Think Leonard and Hearns are too high.
Hey give me time i'll get Hearns out of the top 20 lol.

[JAB5239]

Good list, I know Holman Williams fought at welter but I have him in my mind as a middle so I'd probably drop him. I'd probably have Armstrong in 2nd spot and Gavilan higher. Think Basilio and Mickey Walker should figure but then its a matter of who to drop which isn't easy. And for people even older than me Tommy Ryan should be in the mix.
Think Leonard and Hearns are too high.
Hey give me time i'll get Hearns out of the top 20 lol.

Im, comfortable with Leonard and Hearns in the their respective spots, but that is only my opinion of course.

Don't know much of Tommy Ryan other than to say I've heard of him. Any info on him would be appreciated.

Basilio just misses the top 10 in my opinion, but what a great fighter. I love watching his fights.

Walker is another great, but Im under the impression he did the bulk of his great work at middlweight and above. P4p he is top 25, if not higher, in my opinion.

After rehashing Gavilans career I totally agree he belongs higher amonst welterweights.

Armstrong was an unbelievable fighter, but his best work wasn't at 147. I just can't find a reason to justify moving him any higher let alone into the 2 spot.

Holman Williams is a lot like Burley where people consider him more of a middleweight. This is true, but he had a fine career at 147 beating the likes of Burley, Izzy Janazzo, Cocoa Kid and Eddie Booker amongst others, and fought them in multiple bouts. Maybe I am ranking him a bit high, but the guy was a fabulous fighter and I have great respect for him.

[Thread Stealer]

In case you were interested, this is how The Ring ranked the top 20 welterweights in a recent issue (only retired fighters allowed):

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Kid Gavlian
4. Charley Burley
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Carmen Basilio
7. Jose Napoles
8. Tommy Ryan
9. Barbados Joe Walcott
10. Emile Griffith
11. Thomas Hearns
12. Mickey Walker
13. Jack Britton
14. Ted Kid Lewis
15. Barney Ross
16. Jimmy McLarnin
17. Luis Rodriguez
18. Billy Graham
19. Pernell Whitaker
20. Roberto Duran

[JAB5239]

In case you were interested, this is how The Ring ranked the top 20 welterweights in a recent issue (only retired fighters allowed):

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Kid Gavlian
4. Charley Burley
5. Sugar Ray Leonard
6. Carmen Basilio
7. Jose Napoles
8. Tommy Ryan
9. Barbados Joe Walcott
10. Emile Griffith
11. Thomas Hearns
12. Mickey Walker
13. Jack Britton
14. Ted Kid Lewis
15. Barney Ross
16. Jimmy McLarnin
17. Luis Rodriguez
18. Billy Graham
19. Pernell Whitaker
20. Roberto Duran

It seems at the moment the Ring and I disagree on quite a bit. Thanks for posting this though, Thread Stealer.

My biggest problem is with Armstrong being rated so high. He was a great fighter who I respect immensely, but simply don't think he was the second best welter ever. Can someone make an argument on his behalf?

[StarshipTrooper]

Here's mine:

ATGs

01. Ray Robinson
02. Sam Langford
03. Henry Armstrong
04. Ray Leonard
05. Kid Gavilan
06. Jose Napoles
07. Barney Ross
08. Jimmy McLarnin
09. Thomas Hearns
10. Oscar De La Hoya
11. Emile Griffith
12. Feliz Trinidad
13. Tommy Ryan
14. Luis Rodriguez
15. Duilio Loi
16. Antonio Cervantes
17. Shane Mosley
18. Wilfred Benitez
19. Carmen Basilio
20. Floyd Mayweather Jr.
21. Aaron Pryor


Some Near Greats (Alphabetical)

Billy Graham
Jack Britton
Joe Walcott
Young Jack Thompson
Marty Servo
Carlos Palomino
Buddy McGirt
Packey McFarland
Ted Kid Lewis
Cocoa Kid
Rube Ferns
Gustav Eder
Donald Curry
Simon Brown
Johnny Bratton
Kostya Tszyu
Fritzie Zivic
Marlon Starling
Lloyd Honeyghan
Gypsy Joe Harris
Jackie Fields
Young Corbett III
Saoul Mamby
Nicolino Locche

[TheGreatA]

It seems at the moment the Ring and I disagree on quite a bit. Thanks for posting this though, Thread Stealer.

My biggest problem is with Armstrong being rated so high. He was a great fighter who I respect immensely, but simply don't think he was the second best welter ever. Can someone make an argument on his behalf?

Arguments for him:

19 title defenses at the weight (a record that will likely stay), many wins over great fighters.

Arguments against him:

Wasn't truly a welterweight (only weighed about 140 for his fights), was somewhat past his prime for most his bouts at that weight.

I wouldn't rate Hearns as highly because he lacks the resume at that weight.

[mickey malone]

Most of my lists have stayed the same for years now, but with such an incredible crop of welters over the last 20 years or so, it's become more & more difficult to place fighters in this division..
Some of you may remember, I did an advice seeking thread on the welters a few weeks ago, and after being influenced into some more research by some of you, this is what I've come up with as my up to date list..

1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Ray Leonard
4. Jose Napoles
5. Thomas Hearns
6. Felix Trinidad
7. Carlos Palomino
8. Oscar De La Hoya
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Pipino Cuevas

No 11 would probably be Tommy Ryan..
I wanted to include Jimmy McLarnin, because he fought, and at one time or another, beat ATG's such as Benny Leonard, Lou Ambers, Tony Canzoneri & Barney Ross, but they were all lightweights really..
Barbados Joe Walcott is another, but at 5'1" tall, I couldn't see him troubling any one in the above list..

Arguments could also be made for the following...

Barney Ross (LW)
Shane Mosley (LW)
Pernell Whitaker (LW)
Dulio Loi (LW)
Roberto Duran (LW)
Wilfred Benitez (LM)
Sam Langford (MW)
Emile Griffith (MW)

To avoid over crowding, I'd rate the above in the divisions in brackets..

As the main subject here is Tommy Hearns.. I always thought he looked unbeatable at 154... I'd be tempted to have him at No1 in a list of light middles..

[Junito-Rulez]

1- Ray Robinson
2- Henry Armstrong
3- Ray Leonard
4- Tommie Hearns
5- Floyd Mayweather Jr.
6- Kid Gavilan
7- Jose Napoles
8- Pernell Whitaker
9- Pipino Cuevas
10- Emile Griffith

[1SILVA]

I just threw this list together on a whim with absolutely zero research, besides the knowledge I already have, after another poster claimed Hearns wasn't even a top 20 welterweight. Is this a credible list? If not, who goes, who stays and who rates where? Discuss.

1. Ray Robinson
2. Ray Leonard
3. Tommy Hearns
4. Jose Napoles
5. Emile Griffith
6. Charley Burley
7. Henry armstrong
8. Barney Ross
9. Kid Gavilan
10. Holman Williams

Great list. If not in the top 10, where would you place Donald Curry and Felix Trinidad among all time 147 pounders?