Bernard Hopkins vs James Toney

[sonnyboyx2]

toney just has so much more in his locker than hopkins

hopkins is a good fighter with some skills but he doesn't come anywhere near toney whos an ATG. toney skills are extensive and go beyond spoiling and headbutting.

agree that hopkins talked alot of **** but never really backed it up, i remember when he was rumoured to fight calzaghe, i thought the fight was done and dusted only for b-hop to duck out of it when he saw what calz could do.

imo hopkins did the same thing with rjj, call him out but never really have any intention of fighting him. the only point to call him out was so that he could later on say that he had tried to make the fight.

yes i agree... Toney beats BHop at every aspect of this game..everyone BHop has fought would all be defeated by Toney, but i cannot see BHop beating Holyfield, Ruiz, Rahman, Jirov etc etc

[Dynamite Kid]

yes i agree... Toney beats BHop at every aspect of this game..everyone BHop has fought would all be defeated by Toney, but i cannot see BHop beating Holyfield, Ruiz, Rahman, Jirov etc etc

Why ?


Ruiz was a rubbish Heavyweight Champ and Toney got found guilty for using drugs didn't he ? his win over Rahman is pretty hollow to, because i thought Rahman won the fight and so did HBO if my memory is right, his second fight against Rahman was also overshadowed by the way it ended on a cut. As for Holyfield, he should not of won one fight against Ruiz because Ruiz clearly won the first fight, Rahman's fight with Holyfield was overshadowed by the butt and Evander then went on to get his ears boxed off by Byrd, then Toney beat him, then Larry fcuking Donald was Boxing his ears off.

They are not impressive wins for Toney imo.

[JAB5239]

yes i agree... Toney beats BHop at every aspect of this game..everyone BHop has fought would all be defeated by Toney, but i cannot see BHop beating Holyfield, Ruiz, Rahman, Jirov etc etc

What about Thadzi, Griffin and Tiberi? I mean, shouldn't this match up be kept within the limits both have fought at? Im not even picking a winner, but lets keep it in context.

[Burning Desire]

LOL,James Toney an all time great? Since when? This is why James "Fat" Toney is overrated in a historical sense,Because of idiots like this who rank him as an ATG.Toney is an underachiever,He may have been a better all around fighter than Hopkins at his best but he still doesn't rank higher than Hopkins does in a historical sense because in the spent 8 and a half years he spent becoming a slob and fighting mediocre opponents to pad his record,Hopkins was building his legacy.One took his loss to Roy Jones and moved on with his career and one didn't and no amount of skills can compensate heart and the will to win,Which is what James "Fat" Toney never had

What ranks as an ATG in your book then ? because i think wins over fighters like Evander Holyfield, Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Iran Barkley, Vassiliy Jirov, ETC.

Are great wins and those wins alone rank him as an ATG. Not to mention his career at Middleweight/Super Middleweight, aswell as his great comeback at Cruiserweight and being able to compete as a Heavyweight, is an ATG i don't see how it couldn't be.

Lastly you said James Toney had no will to win, are you kidding me ? he comeback great against Michael Nunn while losing. He knocked down Vassiliy Jirov in the last round in a war to win the fight, and he KO'ed Charles Williams in a close fight tough fight in the last round aswell, if thats not having heart or having will to win i don't know what is.

[TheGreatA]

Why ?


Ruiz was a rubbish Heavyweight Champ and Toney got found guilty for using drugs didn't he ? his win over Rahman is pretty hollow to, because i thought Rahman won the fight and so did HBO if my memory is right, his second fight against Rahman was also overshadowed by the way it ended on a cut. As for Holyfield, he should not of won one fight against Ruiz because Ruiz clearly won the first fight, Rahman's fight with Holyfield was overshadowed by the butt and Evander then went on to get his ears boxed off by Byrd, then Toney beat him, then Larry fcuking Donald was Boxing his ears off.

They are not impressive wins for Toney imo.

The only truly impressive win out of them for Toney is Jirov. I imagine Hopkins would have a lot of trouble winning that fight but due to his consistency he wouldn't be losing to the likes of Thadzi, Griffin and Tiberi either.

[princemanspoper]

What ranks as an ATG in your book then ? because i think wins over fighters like Evander Holyfield, Michael Nunn, Mike McCallum, Iran Barkley, Vassiliy Jirov, ETC.

Are great wins and those wins alone rank him as an ATG. Not to mention his career at Middleweight/Super Middleweight, aswell as his great comeback at Cruiserweight and being able to compete as a Heavyweight, is an ATG i don't see how it couldn't be..

Rid**** Bowe holds a win over a prime Evander Holyfield.Nigel Benn blew out Iran Barkley in one round two and a half years before Toney got to him,Yet neither are regarded as ATG's and Benn could be argued as having a better reseme than Toney.Toney's reseme at 160 and 168 is hardly ATG status.The fact remains Toney spent eight years in limbo,wasting away his prime as a slob,All time greats don't wait that long to make a comeback

[Burning Desire]

The only truly impressive win out of them for Toney is Jirov. I imagine Hopkins would have a lot of trouble winning that fight but due to his consistency he wouldn't be losing to the likes of Thadzi, Griffin and Tiberi either.

To be honest everyone brings up the Montel Griffin fights, but does anyone honestly think James Toney lost these fights ? i mean people bring up the Dave Tiberi fight, which is fine because that was indeed a bad decision.

But was the 2nd Montel Griffin fight much better ? i thought the 1st fight was closish but Montel Griffin could of done no better than a draw IMO. And the 2nd fight i thought James Toney clearly won, by atleast 3 rounds. And the HBO team thought it was a terrible decision aswell.

James Toney was in terrible shape, for his fights against Drake Thadzi, Dave Tiberi. And because he often fought alot aswell, you gotta except some off nights. Even the great fighters in the 40's/50's. Lost a few times because they fought so often like James Toney.

I wouldn't really hold those fights against James Toney, and really you could argue that Bernard Hopkins has never truly beaten an elite fighter without them moving up either.

I mean what really elite Middleweights did Bernard Hopkins beat ?

[Dynamite Kid]

To be honest everyone brings up the Montel Griffin fights, but does anyone honestly think James Toney lost these fights ? i mean people bring up the Dave Tiberi fight, which is fine because that was indeed a bad decision.

But was the 2nd Montel Griffin fight much better ? i thought the 1st fight was closish but Montel Griffin could of done no better than a draw IMO. And the 2nd fight i thought James Toney clearly won, by atleast 3 rounds. And the HBO team thought it was a terrible decision aswell.

James Toney was in terrible shape, for his fights against Drake Thadzi, Dave Tiberi. And because he often fought alot aswell, you gotta except some off nights. Even the great fighters in the 40's/50's. Lost a few times because they fought so often like James Toney.

I wouldn't really hold those fights against James Toney, and really you could argue that Bernard Hopkins has never truly beaten an elite fighter without them moving up either.

I mean what really elite Middleweights did Bernard Hopkins beat ?

The first fight yes, second fight debatable. Does anyone think he beat Mike McCallum 1st or second time ? i dont think James could of done better than a draw against McCallum in the first fight.

I have the Thadzi fight and during the telecast it said nothing about Toney being out of shape, matter of fact i seem to remember the commentator saying Toney himself said he was inshape for the fight. Thadzi just outworked him on the ropes.

Bernard Hopkins has never truly beaten an elite fighter without them moving up either.

Cant argue with that though, although lets not forget that Hagler fought some big MW's in his time and none of them gave him the trouble Leonard and Duran gave him, now you can say thats because they are Duran and Leonard but Duran was hardly setting the world a light at the higher weight and Leonard was coming off 2 year lay off. I put it more down to the fact that even without being full fledged MW's they (Duran & Leonard) were elite fighters that faired better against Hagler than some of the legitimate MW's he beat BECAUSE ! they were elite, regardless of their size, thats why i think Hopkins wins over DLH, Trinidad are still excellent wins.

[Benncollinsaad]

A middleweight Toney beats Hopkins easily. A light heavyweight Toney would have problems with Hopkins, but he could beat him. If he stayed fit and focused.

[Dynamite Kid]

A middleweight Toney beats Hopkins easily. A light heavyweight Toney would have problems with Hopkins, but he could beat him. If he stayed fit and focused.

Easily? no chance!!