Bernard Hopkins vs James Toney

[Dynamite Kid]

But it's Hopkins uncanny ability to maximize his talents while minimizing his opponets that makes me pick him against Toney.

Yep, and although i dont like Joe Calzaghe that is something i feel he to has done successfully, so i dont mind giving him credit for it.

[ßringer]

Yep, and although i dont like Joe Calzaghe that is something i feel he to has done successfully, so i dont mind giving him credit for it.

Indeed.

Not a fan of Calzaghe either, but I'm the first person to stand up and give the man credit for his ability to adapt and overcome in whatever situation he finds himself in.

He's a master of it. Just like Hopkins.

[warp1432]

Calzaghe might have better adapting abilities then Hopkins, but Hopkins has better technical ability so it helps him control better.

Still Calzaghe is a helluva an adapter. It's crazy

[GJC]

Oh don't get me wrong ; Toney is plenty talented. His talents far outweight Hopkins' talents, IMO.

But it's Hopkins uncanny ability to maximize his talents while minimizing his opponets that makes me pick him against Toney.

Especially when I consider how inconsistent Toney can be and how he often struggles when he's not allowed to fight his style of fight.

There are plenty of guys whom I think can match Hopkins in the 160-175lbs range, historically. Toney just isn't one of them.

Make you right, I think top notch Toney has a good chance anything less and BHop will win. Like I say i'd feel safer having my pension on Hopkins

[Equinox]

toney can come in heavyweight and hopkins cruiseweight, hopkins still beats him.

[RightCross94]

Even now at the age of 44, Hopkins has so many more dimensions to his game than James Toney ever had.

I feel that that would be the biggest factor in deciding this one.

Strength, stamina, intelligence, footwork ; none of that matters if you're not smart enough to use it to your advantage.

And if history has shown us anything it's that Toney is easily controlled once he is taken out of his element and forced to fight the other man's fight.

Against Hopkins that would spell sure doom.

The man is a master of making his opponet fight his fight and taking away whatever their greatest asset in the ring may be.

I would pick Hopkins to beat Toney at Middleweight, Super Middleweight, and Light Heavyweight.

Probably Cruiserweight as well though I would have a bit more reservation about it.

I usually agree with you on most stuff but i'm not sure about that. Toney had/has an incredible skillset and overall game, as does Hopkins. Toney was much faster than Hopkins when both were at their peaks, superior defensively and equal in terms of chin, resilience etc. Hopkins had the edge in power, and stamina, and i'm the first to admit he was more dedicated than James.

I'd call it about even as to how complete both their games are, James and Bernard are probably the two smartest fighters in the world, both are very intelligent and relaxed in the ring.

Of course you being a huge Bernard fan (I'm a pretty big Hopkins fan too but not as much as you) and Toney being my favourite fighter, our predictions in a close match up like this are probably going to be decided by who we like more.

I think the puncher Hopkins was in the past would get beaten by Toney. The more defensive Hopkins however would be locked in a very technical and close fight with James, neither really getting hit much, both trying to set traps for the other, both trying to slip in the counter right....Too close to call.

[RightCross94]

Shhhh!!!!!!!!!

Nobody is supposed to know that!

Honestly though I don't see Toney beating Hopkins, and I really don't see any of the fuss with Toney to begin with.

Regardless of his talents I don't know how anybody who is a fan of this sport could support a guy as lazy as Toney.

He doesn't even take it seriously enough to get in shape, let alone stay there.

That's these days though, Duran wasn't exactly in shape for a lot of his career either.

James was in shape for his best years at 160 and 168 (even though he occasionally put in a bad performance due to cutting weight improperly) and even at 200 he was in decent shape. He wasn't lazy his whole career, you don't get to that level being a lazy fuck, it's a lot of hard work. In fact the hard work James put in during those years is probably what caused him to take it easy in later years.

Duran like I mentioned is similar to Toney, cut too much weight sometimes, fought like **** against sub par opponents, out of shape in later career etc. Obviously Duran is a better fighter than James historically, but the parallels between the two are there.

[GJC]

He wasn't lazy his whole career, you don't get to that level being a lazy fuck, it's a lot of hard work. In fact the hard work James put in during those years is probably what caused him to take it easy in later years.

I always think these comments re lazy etc are relative, bit like when people say so and so can't hit.
I don't think Valuevg has much of a punch but I wouldn't fancy him hitting me!

[ßringer]

I usually agree with you on most stuff but i'm not sure about that. Toney had/has an incredible skillset and overall game, as does Hopkins. Toney was much faster than Hopkins when both were at their peaks, superior defensively and equal in terms of chin, resilience etc. Hopkins had the edge in power, and stamina, and i'm the first to admit he was more dedicated than James.

I'd call it about even as to how complete both their games are, James and Bernard are probably the two smartest fighters in the world, both are very intelligent and relaxed in the ring.

Of course you being a huge Bernard fan (I'm a pretty big Hopkins fan too but not as much as you) and Toney being my favourite fighter, our predictions in a close match up like this are probably going to be decided by who we like more.

I think the puncher Hopkins was in the past would get beaten by Toney. The more defensive Hopkins however would be locked in a very technical and close fight with James, neither really getting hit much, both trying to set traps for the other, both trying to slip in the counter right....Too close to call.

Prime for prime Toney has the advantage in skill, I believe I said that in an earlier post.

But as it stands now, I believe Hopkins to be the more skilled ot the two. Both of them are excellent counterpunchers, excellent movers, and excellent at laying a trap for their opponet. But Toney's stamina is piss poor due to his lack of dedication, while Hopkins' is still impressive for a guy who will be 45 in another 5 months.

I'd also edge Hopkins for handspeed as it stands now, because of the way he matched Calzaghe's speed whenever he was throwing in their fight.

So like I said ; prime for prime, Toney is the more skilled. But now, I edge Hopkins.

Like you say, me being a Hopkins fan and you being a Toney fan we're likely to have differing opininions on this.

Honestly it really depends on which version of Bernard fights which version of James.

I do agree that the old version of Hopkins, the aggressive boxer/puncher would have a much harder time with Toney than the reformed, 2000+ version of Hopkins who was much more technical and cagey.

That's these days though, Duran wasn't exactly in shape for a lot of his career either.

James was in shape for his best years at 160 and 168 (even though he occasionally put in a bad performance due to cutting weight improperly) and even at 200 he was in decent shape. He wasn't lazy his whole career, you don't get to that level being a lazy ****, it's a lot of hard work. In fact the hard work James put in during those years is probably what caused him to take it easy in later years.

Duran like I mentioned is similar to Toney, cut too much weight sometimes, fought like **** against sub par opponents, out of shape in later career etc. Obviously Duran is a better fighter than James historically, but the parallels between the two are there.

Point taken, but James was also lazy back in the day, as well. He was ballooning up in weight between fights and it was part of the reason he lost to Jones because he was so drained.

So even back in his prime days, the evidence that he lacked dedication was already there.

Whereas I don't even have to touch on how dedicated Hopkins has been since his Middleweight days ; it's widely known and respected.

Does it factor into the fight? Probably not.

But it's worth mentioning.

[dde91]

This would be a Replay of HOPKINS-WRIGHT with Hopkins winning. Toney is slightly over rated to me from he media. The man is a great Fighter but to me he isn't an ATG. Hopkins is an ATG. Hopkins peak at MW was from 97-2001, and i feel that during those years, not many fighters from 160-175 could beat him. He had everything Great Stamina, Defense, Combinations, Chin, Footwork, Ring Intelligence, Etc. He was a COMPLETE prize fighter.

James Toney is one of them Fighters who could have been greater then he is, but FAT BURGER kept pulling him in. Hopkins Decisions Toney but not with Ease. It would be a great CHESS match but who at Hopkins peak can beat him at his own game?????