1967 Ali vs. 1971 Frazier

[tvrdorah]

@BKM-2010 - Could you elaborate?

I think that Pre-layoff Ali was physically better than post-layoff in EVERY way possible.

Post layoff Ali had to go through hell with the us government, financial problems, etc... I agree with the saying: "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". I still think that Ali from '67 was stronger, even mentally.

[BKM-2010]

@BKM-2010 - Could you elaborate?

I think that Pre-layoff Ali was physically better than post-layoff in EVERY way possible.

Post layoff Ali had to go through hell with the us government, financial problems, etc... I agree with the saying: "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". I still think that Ali from '67 was stronger, even mentally.

Maybe he was ready mentally but physically? I think he was tough enough to withstand the punishment from Frazier to get the win but I think his body would be damaged more than it did in the FOTC. Ali definitely became more durable the older he became.

[tvrdorah]

Ali from '67 had something which you could call a perfect body, especially for the way he boxed. His body was rock hard, ultra low % of body fat.

Post layoff Ali didn't have a tight body at all, especially against Quarry, Bonavena and Smokin' Joe. Body shots will affect you way more with a flabby body.

Ali losing his stamina, his reflexes, his leg speed(dancing) + overall ring rust contributed to him getting hit by Frazier's left hook way too often. Ali had never been hit so often pre-layoff, which is why I think the FOTC would have affected him way less if he was in his '67 state.

[JimEarl]

A '67 Ali would have looked better against everybody that he fought including Frazier.

I've always thought Norton was actually Ali's most difficult opponent and I think Ali would have done marginally better with him as well.

[BKM-2010]

Ali had never been hit so often pre-layoff, which is why I think the FOTC would have affected him way less if he was in his '67 state.

He had also never faced an opponent as great as peak Frazier, just throwing that out there.

I also think you're seeing an optical illusion. Ali appeared to carry more bodyfat in the 70s because he gained some weight, but best believe that below that fat he had the same rock hard body that could take punishment like no other, certainly more than pre-layoff.

The biggest question to me about this matchup is wether Ali would able to dance around Joe, or will he still get cut off against the ropes/corners and have to fight Frazier on the inside again.

[tvrdorah]

@JimEarl - Indeed, Norton's awkward style made Ali look bad. Yet if you take a look at their second bout, for which Ali trained relatively well, whenever Ali danced, Norton couldn't do squat. Those rounds in which Ali danced, he won. This indicates that Ali from '67 would most likely beat Norton on points (at least).

[tvrdorah]

@BKM-2010 - Let's say that I could agree that under that layer of fat Ali still had the same quantity/quality of body muscle (but it's unlikely). What I dont see is how the fat could contribute to him being able to take more punishment? It would simply mean that he was slower, that he was gonna get hit more often, get tired faster.

I also can't comprehend why a 3.5 year layoff would give you a better chin.

[BKM-2010]

@BKM-2010 - Let's say that I could agree that under that layer of fat Ali still had the same quantity/quality of body muscle (but it's unlikely). What I dont see is how the fat could contribute to him being able to take more punishment? It would simply mean that he was slower, that he was gonna get hit more often, get tired faster.

I also can't comprehend why a 3.5 year layoff would give you a better chin.

Ali was about 25 against Folley right? Very close to physically maturing but most males will continue developing throughout their twenties, thicker muscles and bones thicken etc. I believe Ali was like that, he just looks like a more mature and thicker built man in the 70s, visually speaking I think that's what made him more durable.

Put it this way, if early twenties Ali has a 3 year lay-off and then faces peak Frazier at 25, he does worse than Ali did in FOTC. Unless he avoids the brutal pace of their fights and dances around Frazier to win on points, but can he?

[tvrdorah]

Could be. He did mature, and gain experience. But any extra weight, even if it were a gain in pure muscle (with no fat at all), would still damage '67 Ali's performace. His defence wasn't based on being a tank, but a mongoose.

I guess it all comes down to whether '67 Ali could dance away from peak Frazier's hooks or not. Even though, If my su****ions are correct, Ali would have lost by UD even if rounds 11 and 15 didn't flow the way they did in the FOTC.

[BattlingNelson]

One of the most bizarre nut bag arguments of all time is the notion that a 1960's Ali was "prime" and the 70's version was a shadow of his former greatness.

This is a convenient approach for nut bags because it allows them to basically write off any struggles against his 70's opponents by basically claiming that "if THIS Ali could do that, imagine what a 60's Ali could have done." AND even when Ali does win, they claim that a 60's Ali would have won even easier/better.

The problem arises when we actually COMPARE the 2 Ali's.

60's Ali never fought a decent opponent! Not even for the standard of his era!

So champion Sonny Liston was below decent. Even for his era.


did you really write that? Are you ok? I can understand how you put emphasis upon weight all the time. I dont agree with it, but I can understand where you are coming from. But the above..... Surely you where just trolling right?