1967 Ali vs. 1971 Frazier

[Dynamite Kid]

i am not making excuses for Muhammad Ali, IMO the 1967 version was better than the 71 version

Might be true but.......

Does not translate to him beating Frazier in his prime. Ali in his prime was a more naive fighter than the one that came back.

[sonnyboyx2]

Hi Dynamite, I dont think that any true fan is taking anything away from Frazier's performances. He was fantastic on March 8th 1971. But it was a close fight and it seems churlish to think that Frazier that night would have beaten the best version of many expert's ATG heavyweight. Ali was nothing like as good as he was four years previously.

Joe did not have fast feet! I think you'll find most experts would class Patterson and Liston as having faster feet. Liston put a hell of a lot of pressure on Clay first time round, maybe more than Frazier early on! Its just that Ali had his footwork to get out of trouble, check out the film. Most highlight reels only show Clay's great moments in rounds 1,3 and 6. Liston was very effective at closing the distance.

Anyway, back on topic. Have you ever watched Ali vs Frazier 2? Frazier himself confesses in the documentary 'Champions Forever' that he was 'more bad' for this fight than 'any other fight'. Frazier was only slightly post prime in 1974 yet he had amazing problems catching an Ali who could dance and move, fight 2 wasn't even close. I forget the scores but I think one judge had it 8:4! It simply shows that stylistically, when Ali got on his bike Frazier was nullified, its as close to anything how the prime Ali would have fought the prime Frazier. It is instinctively how Ali would have approached the fight in the late 60s.

The Thrilla in Manilla, only a year later was much closer because Ali came in heavy (224 Lbs as opposed to 212Lbs in 74) and didn't dance till round 7.

For what its worth I will admit that it would be suicide for even a peak Ali to fight Frazier toe to toe, but that would be working to Frazier's every advantage and neglecting Ali's best assets, his footwork and outside boxing ability.

Frazier vs Ali (1) was the greatest fight in boxing history, more punches thrown than any fight in history yet you are diminishing the fight and the greatness of the two fighters. ... bazaar!

[Sugarj]

Damn right folks, I scored the fight for Frazier, he definitely and clearly deserved it bless him. I dont want to upset anyone.

My scoring analysis was only for fun, although it demonstrates how close it really was with 2 judges (where the result really lies). The knockdown pulled the fight out of draw territory, how unfair would that have been? Scary!

Anyway, just for you Dynamite I'll take a fresh look at the second Frazier fight tonight and try not to have any Ali tinted glasses on! But as for Frazier vs Ellis 2, Quarry 2 and Bugner, no two ways about it, they were good wins for Joe. The first Ellis and Quarry fights were hard fought while they lasted too with a peak Frazier.

[Dynamite Kid]

Damn right folks, I scored the fight for Frazier, he definitely and clearly deserved it bless him. I dont want to upset anyone.

My scoring analysis was only for fun, although it demonstrates how close it really was with 2 judges (where the result really lies). The knockdown pulled the fight out of draw territory, how unfair would that have been? Scary!

Anyway, just for you Dynamite I'll take a fresh look at the second Frazier fight tonight and try not to have any Ali tinted glasses on! But as for Frazier vs Ellis 2, Quarry 2 and Bugner, no two ways about it, they were good wins for Joe. The first Ellis and Quarry fights were hard fought while they lasted too with a peak Frazier.

What are you going to be looking out for in the second Frazier fight ? id suggest you should watch the Frazier vs Ellis 2 fight again because Joe did not look impressive at all in that fight imo.

[Sugarj]

Oh and hi Sonnybox, I'm in no way 'diminishing' the fight. Its one of my most favorite ever by two of my favorite fighters. I watched it for the upteenth time again only last week.....love it!

I'm just having some amusement with the thread, great fight. Both fighters were magnificent!

I'd argue the Thrilla in Manilla had more punches landed, but I guess it did have one fewer round so hell..............

[Sugarj]

Hi Dynamite, on Frazier 2 perhaps I was a bit blase about Ali's holding and his exhaustion levels. I'll give it another look.

As for Ellis 2, whether Frazier showed good form in your book is arguable, but dont forget that Ellis was a damn good boxer, no shame in being outboxed before grinding out a stoppage loss. I'll stick that one on the replay list too.

[Dynamite Kid]

Hi Dynamite, on Frazier 2 perhaps I was a bit blase about Ali's holding and his exhaustion levels. I'll give it another look.

As for Ellis 2, whether Frazier showed good form in your book is arguable, but dont forget that Ellis was a damn good boxer, no shame in being outboxed before grinding out a stoppage loss. I'll stick that one on the replay list too.

OK.

I rate Ellis as a good fighter to, he was very competitive with Ali in the early rounds before Ali took over, but having seen him against Joe the first time and how Ellis seemed a past it himself, id have expected better from Joe. He started very slowly and looked a little less intense.

[StarshipTrooper]

For the record, I had Ali leading 6-4 after 10 rounds with Frazier winning 4 of the last 5 for a 6-8-1 decision win.....this fight was scored on the rounds system. Had been scored 10 point must I would have had it 141-144 for Frazier.

Poet

[boxingbuff]

I think the greatest fight would have been a 1969 Ali with no lay-off vs 1971 Frazier.

Another question.....How would Joe Frazier do after a 3 1/2 year lay-off vs a Prime Ali?

[Sugarj]

Hi Poet, yes one judge got it exactly the same as you, I'd have said that is a fair reflection of the fight.

And Hi Boxingbuff, quality comment there! I'm still chuckling.