1967 Ali vs. 1971 Frazier

[Dynamite Kid]

yes i agree 100% the Frazier slow-starter was myth` .. Muhammad Ali was in his prime in 1967 that there is no doubt about, Yet Muhammad Ali fought the greatest fight of his professional career on March 8th 1971 and was beaten by Joe Frazier, if the Ali of 1967 was to have fought Frazier i see Ali winning by a clear points decision simply because he had `the legs` to keep him out of trouble.

They used to say Frazier was a slow starter in terms of he used to lose the 1st round quite often. Don Dumphe said it.

Legs dont cover you all the while if you keep dropping your hands.

Ali was getting nailed by Carl Daniels and he got dropped or hurt by Banks, Doug Jones, Cooper, his defence was always pretty open.

Who has Ali decisoned that comes remotely close to Joe Frazier in terms of style ? no one pre lay off.

Chuvalo, Sonny Liston, Patterson, Cooper are totally different fighters to Frazier. Frazier closes distance fast and puts an unbelievable amount of pressure on you, and he does not give you the chance to THINK about what punch to throw. Liston and Chuvalo dont have the footspeed to close distance quickly and that is why they got picked off at will, they allowed Ali time and space whilst Joe denied him it.

It makes me sick how so many of you want to make excuses for Ali to try and take away from Joe's performances, dont give me that..........im not, its exactly what you are doing.

[Silencers]

I think Ali would have won a decision but it would have been interesting to see how well the '67 Ali would've been able to take Frazier's shots because I don't think his punch resistance back in '67 was as good as it became even though it wasn't tested much after the first Cooper fight, Chuvalo landed some really good body shots though.

[hayZ]

Muhammad Ali of 1967 would have won. The 1971 fight, Ali gave him a very good fight, and this was an Ali who did not have the stamina/reflexes and leg speed of the one in 67. Joe Frazier was a bull, he would always give Ali a very tough fight, but Ali would have beaten him, no doubt. Cooper/Jones all fought him before he became champ, in 1967 he was a better fighter, more smart and was taking shots better. Chuvalo landed some bombs on him, but no one took a shot better then Ali.

[Slippy D]

The Ali of 67 was 50% better than the post exile version. Almost unlimited stamina he also had a better pop.

George Chuvalo was always asked which Ali gave his the bigger beating the 1967 or 1972 version and he always says the 67 version was twice the fighter.

[Sugarj]

Hi Dynamite, I dont think that any true fan is taking anything away from Frazier's performances. He was fantastic on March 8th 1971. But it was a close fight and it seems churlish to think that Frazier that night would have beaten the best version of many expert's ATG heavyweight. Ali was nothing like as good as he was four years previously.

Joe did not have fast feet! I think you'll find most experts would class Patterson and Liston as having faster feet. Liston put a hell of a lot of pressure on Clay first time round, maybe more than Frazier early on! Its just that Ali had his footwork to get out of trouble, check out the film. Most highlight reels only show Clay's great moments in rounds 1,3 and 6. Liston was very effective at closing the distance.

Anyway, back on topic. Have you ever watched Ali vs Frazier 2? Frazier himself confesses in the documentary 'Champions Forever' that he was 'more bad' for this fight than 'any other fight'. Frazier was only slightly post prime in 1974 yet he had amazing problems catching an Ali who could dance and move, fight 2 wasn't even close. I forget the scores but I think one judge had it 8:4! It simply shows that stylistically, when Ali got on his bike Frazier was nullified, its as close to anything how the prime Ali would have fought the prime Frazier. It is instinctively how Ali would have approached the fight in the late 60s.

The Thrilla in Manilla, only a year later was much closer because Ali came in heavy (224 Lbs as opposed to 212Lbs in 74) and didn't dance till round 7.

For what its worth I will admit that it would be suicide for even a peak Ali to fight Frazier toe to toe, but that would be working to Frazier's every advantage and neglecting Ali's best assets, his footwork and outside boxing ability.

[Dynamite Kid]

Hi Dynamite, I dont think that any true fan is taking anything away from Frazier's performances. He was fantastic on March 8th 1971. But it was a close fight and it seems churlish to think that Frazier that night would have beaten the best version of many expert's ATG heavyweight. Ali was nothing like as good as he was four years previously.

Joe did not have fast feet! I think you'll find most experts would class Patterson and Liston as having faster feet. Liston put a hell of a lot of pressure on Clay first time round, maybe more than Frazier early on! Its just that Ali had his footwork to get out of trouble, check out the film. Most highlight reels only show Clay's great moments in rounds 1,3 and 6. Liston was very effective at closing the distance.

Anyway, back on topic. Have you ever watched Ali vs Frazier 2? Frazier himself confesses in the documentary 'Champions Forever' that he was 'more bad' for this fight than 'any other fight'. Frazier was only slightly post prime in 1974 yet he had amazing problems catching an Ali who could dance and move, fight 2 wasn't even close. I forget the scores but I think one judge had it 8:4! It simply shows that stylistically, when Ali got on his bike Frazier was nullified, its as close to anything how the prime Ali would have fought the prime Frazier. It is instinctively how Ali would have approached the fight in the late 60s.

The Thrilla in Manilla, only a year later was much closer because Ali came in heavy (224 Lbs as opposed to 212Lbs in 74) and didn't dance till round 7.

For what its worth I will admit that it would be suicide for even a peak Ali to fight Frazier toe to toe, but that would be working to Frazier's every advantage and neglecting Ali's best assets, his footwork and outside boxing ability.

I dont mean to imply that Joe had fast feet its just that Liston, Chuvalo did not have fast feet to close the distance adequately and the way they fight, which seems more of a conventional Boxing stance compared to Joe, it requires you to quicken your feet up to get to some like Ali who is constantly moving.

Joe slipped punches and got closer or walked through shots and he cut the ring down better.

Liston was not cutting Ali off, Joe's pressure style dictates that he must be good at cutting the ring down. Liston was coming in straight to AND reaching.

That is why i said that Ali would beat Joe but ONLY after he has already been in the ring with him, he can only adapt to what Joe is doing once he had been in there with him. Ali was also allowed to hold excessively second time around and it was not a Championship distance fight.

With a ref that does not alllow him to hold as much inside and a 15 round fight there is no telling what happens.

Joe was not the same fighter after the 1st fight imo.

[Sugarj]

Hi Dynamite, I suppose we could go back and forth on this one for a while. I think we are both firmly in different corners and thats fine. The fun of these forums is to discuss outcomes that can never be proved.

Either way, I thought Liston's pressure tactics were ok, he was simply reaching because the target wasn't there, Frazier reached with quite a few hooks in Ali 2, trying the same against a dancing Ali.

But I agree, 12 rounds is not 15, but I thought Ali looked pretty fresh in the 12th round in Frazier 2, shuffle and all. I never really thought the holding was as blatent as some did, it was only one hand round the back of Frazier's head for a couple of seconds at a time, no reason for Frazier not to throw body punches or duck under it, hardly the human octopus! At Ali's peak (seven years previous to Frazier 2!) I dont think we'd have seen much holding though.

I never thought Frazier declined that much post Ali 1, some blame Foreman. But Frazier still looked damn good against Bugner, Ellis, and Quarry.....not to mention Ali 3 where he was amazing again.

But back on subject AGAIN! Ha ha, I suppose the scorecards to Ali Frazier 1 can give an indication of how good Ali would have had to have been to have beaten Frazier that night. The scores were:

9:6 Frazier
8:6:1 Frazier
11:4 Frazier (what was this guy watching?)

UNANIMOUS DECISION FOR JOE FRAZIER

Now if Frazier didn't actually knock Ali down in round fifteen but still won the final round they would have read:

8:7 Frazier
7:7:1 DRAW
10:5 Frazier

MAJORITY DECISION FOR JOE FRAZIER

Now, just for fun lets say Ali wins the final round, hell he started it well and often finished fifteen round decisions with excellent rounds, we get:

8:7 Ali
8:6:1 Ali
8:7 Frazier

SPLIT DECISION FOR MUHAMMAD ALI

Yes, thats how close it was, I think my maths is correct! So in essence all the peak 1967 Ali has to do is not get knocked down and win one more round. Hell, I dont want to upset any Frazier fans but I think a peak Ali has more than one extra round in the bag and the ability to stay errect for the distance over the 1971 Ali.

Its only for fun and speculation.........

[sonnyboyx2]

They used to say Frazier was a slow starter in terms of he used to lose the 1st round quite often. Don Dumphe said it.

Legs dont cover you all the while if you keep dropping your hands.

Ali was getting nailed by Carl Daniels and he got dropped or hurt by Banks, Doug Jones, Cooper, his defence was always pretty open.

Who has Ali decisoned that comes remotely close to Joe Frazier in terms of style ? no one pre lay off.

Chuvalo, Sonny Liston, Patterson, Cooper are totally different fighters to Frazier. Frazier closes distance fast and puts an unbelievable amount of pressure on you, and he does not give you the chance to THINK about what punch to throw. Liston and Chuvalo dont have the footspeed to close distance quickly and that is why they got picked off at will, they allowed Ali time and space whilst Joe denied him it.

It makes me sick how so many of you want to make excuses for Ali to try and take away from Joe's performances, dont give me that..........im not, its exactly what you are doing.

i am not making excuses for Muhammad Ali, IMO the 1967 version was better than the 71 version

[Dynamite Kid]

Hi Dynamite, I suppose we could go back and forth on this one for a while. I think we are both firmly in different corners and thats fine. The fun of these forums is to discuss outcomes that can never be proved.

Either way, I thought Liston's pressure tactics were ok, he was simply reaching because the target wasn't there, Frazier reached with quite a few hooks in Ali 2, trying the same against a dancing Ali.

But I agree, 12 rounds is not 15, but I thought Ali looked pretty fresh in the 12th round in Frazier 2, shuffle and all. I never really thought the holding was as blatent as some did, it was only one hand round the back of Frazier's head for a couple of seconds at a time, no reason for Frazier not to throw body punches or duck under it, hardly the human octopus! At Ali's peak (seven years previous to Frazier 2!) I dont think we'd have seen much holding though.

I never thought Frazier declined that much post Ali 1, some blame Foreman. But Frazier still looked damn good against Bugner, Ellis, and Quarry.....not to mention Ali 3 where he was amazing again.

But back on subject AGAIN! Ha ha, I suppose the scorecards to Ali Frazier 1 can give an indication of how good Ali would have had to have been to have beaten Frazier that night. The scores were:

9:6 Frazier
8:6:1 Frazier
11:4 Frazier (what was this guy watching?)

UNANIMOUS DECISION FOR JOE FRAZIER

Now if Frazier didn't actually knock Ali down in round fifteen but still won the final round they would have read:

8:7 Frazier
7:7:1 DRAW
10:5 Frazier

MAJORITY DECISION FOR JOE FRAZIER

Now, just for fun lets say Ali wins the final round, hell he started it well and often finished fifteen round decisions with excellent rounds, we get:

8:7 Ali
8:6:1 Ali
8:7 Frazier

SPLIT DECISION FOR MUHAMMAD ALI

Yes, thats how close it was, I think my maths is correct! So in essence all the peak 1967 Ali has to do is not get knocked down and win one more round. Hell, I dont want to upset any Frazier fans but I think a peak Ali has more than one extra round in the bag and the ability to stay errect for the distance over the 1971 Ali.

Its only for fun and speculation.........

He was reaching because he was not getting his feet into position before letting the punches go and because he was not cutting Ali off, he was coming in a straight line.

I suspect Frazier reached with the left hook occasionally because he knew if he went under, Ali would feel a false sense of security and pull away with his chin up the way he was prone to do. Bottom line is Frazier cut the ring down and did not come in straight.


Dude come on, he was holding a helluva lot and he looked tired in the closing stages, Frazier was starting to shrug him off towards the end because he was that tired. You try to throw a punch when someone is pulling your head down.

What? Frazier looked poor against Ellis the second time, he started slow and did not get smokin till late in the fight.

Bugner is easy for a World Class fighter to look okay against because he only throws one punch at a time( the jab)

Frazier did not look impressive to me against Ron Stander either, he got hit too much imo.

Ali looked okay to me after his lay off but people still make excuses for him losing to Joe and say he was past prime, but Joe isn't after his fight with Ali ? where although he won the fight his face was more battered than Ali's. Besides Ali's jaw there was not a mark on his face. Joe had already had wars with Bonavena 2x, Jerry Quarry then this fight.


8:7 Frazier
7:7:1 DRAW
10:5 Frazier

But he did knock Ali down and he is not the first to have done it, Doug Jones shook him up, Carl Daniels shook him up, Bonavena shook him up, Cooper and Banks dropped him. You cant start chalking off rounds and a knockdown and say what if this never happened, it did happen.

[sonnyboyx2]

Hi Dynamite, I suppose we could go back and forth on this one for a while. I think we are both firmly in different corners and thats fine. The fun of these forums is to discuss outcomes that can never be proved.

Either way, I thought Liston's pressure tactics were ok, he was simply reaching because the target wasn't there, Frazier reached with quite a few hooks in Ali 2, trying the same against a dancing Ali.

But I agree, 12 rounds is not 15, but I thought Ali looked pretty fresh in the 12th round in Frazier 2, shuffle and all. I never really thought the holding was as blatent as some did, it was only one hand round the back of Frazier's head for a couple of seconds at a time, no reason for Frazier not to throw body punches or duck under it, hardly the human octopus! At Ali's peak (seven years previous to Frazier 2!) I dont think we'd have seen much holding though.

I never thought Frazier declined that much post Ali 1, some blame Foreman. But Frazier still looked damn good against Bugner, Ellis, and Quarry.....not to mention Ali 3 where he was amazing again.

But back on subject AGAIN! Ha ha, I suppose the scorecards to Ali Frazier 1 can give an indication of how good Ali would have had to have been to have beaten Frazier that night. The scores were:

9:6 Frazier
8:6:1 Frazier
11:4 Frazier (what was this guy watching?)

UNANIMOUS DECISION FOR JOE FRAZIER

Now if Frazier didn't actually knock Ali down in round fifteen but still won the final round they would have read:

8:7 Frazier
7:7:1 DRAW
10:5 Frazier

MAJORITY DECISION FOR JOE FRAZIER

Now, just for fun lets say Ali wins the final round, hell he started it well and often finished fifteen round decisions with excellent rounds, we get:

8:7 Ali
8:6:1 Ali
8:7 Frazier

SPLIT DECISION FOR MUHAMMAD ALI

Yes, thats how close it was, I think my maths is correct! So in essence all the peak 1967 Ali has to do is not get knocked down and win one more round. Hell, I dont want to upset any Frazier fans but I think a peak Ali has more than one extra round in the bag and the ability to stay errect for the distance over the 1971 Ali.

Its only for fun and speculation.........

nice hyporthetical analysis but i seen the Ali vs Frazier (1) fight 10-5 for Frazier so regardless of your assumptions it was a big win for Joe Frazier which-ever way you want to look at it