When did Muhammad Ali start to slide ?

[Obama]

Ali had a style which relied HEAVILY on him being lightning fast and agile. Post Layoff he was fast but not as fast as before. Are you trying to tell me Ali was the same? Come on man, all you have to do is watch the fights. It's simply unreal for you to claim that, just by watching him fight you can see that. Prime Ali beats Frazier more convincingly but Frazier is a bull, he would always give Ali a good fight.

No, I'm not trying to tell you he was the same physically, I'm just trying to tell you he was prime. Bernard Hopkins was prime up to his very late 30s. He was physically peaked early 30s. When athletic ability goes down a tad, and boxing skills go up, you can remain in your prime. Prime is a balance of the two. When you're green your athletic ability is peak, but your skills aren't nearly there yet so you aren't prime. When you're a tad post prime your boxing skills are peak, but your athletic ability is severely diminished.

Hi *****, yep I'd agree..............most fighters have a 1-3 year athletic prime. Most of the greats including Ali, Louis, Robinson, Marciano, Leonard, Holmes, Hatton, Tyson, all have primes of around this time. That said many do achieve amazing things and put in terrific performances many years post prime like Foreman, Moore, Hopkins, Duran as well as some of the above guys.

I totally see the argument for a fighter gaining ring smarts post prime which can lead to him beating a guy that he wouldn't previously have beaten when in his prime, but I think this can only be reserved for some of the true legends of the sport. It happens fairly rarely to be honest.

As for Ali vs Frazier. Yes Ali was only 29, and these days that is prime or even pre prime for a heavyweight. But from the turn of the century through till the mid 70s a guy over thirty was often considered a bit old or past it, think Dempsey, Louis, Patterson, Charles. Walcott was considered ancient at 37! Dempsey, Louis, Patterson, Ali, Frazier all entered world class in their early 20s and were considered post prime in their early 30s. It was reflected in their performances and in the opinions of experts.

Likewise, when Ali came back, if you watch the Quarry and Bonavena fights he was clearly not what he was. He danced three rounds with Quarry and admitted in his biography that he felt exhausted afterwards.....it wasn't even a hard three rounds! He fought Bonavena largely flat footed and got hit a fair bit, a far cry from the fifteen rounds he spent with either Chuvalo or Terrell.

Frazier would have given a prime Ali alot to think about, no two ways about it.....but Ali was so damn mobile and hard to hit that I honestly cant see Frazier actually winning. Frazier would be chasing the ring down just like in their second fight, being hit 4 times or so to his one. The only reason the Thrilla in Manilla was so close was because Ali didn't dance..........same with the 1971 fight.

I'd be very suprised if anyone is prepared to watch Ali vs Frazier 2 and still think Frazier would have beaten the prime Ali. Granted they were both a touch post prime in 1974, but it showcases how Frazier would have tried to deal with a mobile, dancing Ali.........and he wouldn't have faired too well in my opinion.

Oh.....and the Barrera that lost to Pacquiou was a touch post prime IMO, I'd have said Barrera's prime was 1999-2002, these years included the first Moralles fight and the Hamed fight among others.

Good arguments, and at least you are consistent with Barrera.

As for Ali vs Frazier II, that victory is tainted. The level of disgraceful holding Ali did would not be seen in a historically significant fight again till Hatton vs Tszyu.

Also, I chalk up the Bonavena and Quarry performances to ring rust and lack of concern for the opposition. They were merely tune ups. If Mayweather doesn't beat the pants off Marquez next month, will you be telling me he is past his prime?

[StarshipTrooper]

As far as I'm concerned when a fighter's reflexes and his legs start to slide then he's past-prime.....and NO, Hopkins was NOT prime into his late 30s.

Poet

[Obama]

As the resident Philadelphian here I'm proclaiming myself as the expert on Hopkins prime:

'97 - '03

[RightCross94]

a fighter is past prime when his main attributes start to drop off

so when a reflex and speed based fighter starts to lose the blinding speed and slick reflexes he once had, he's past his prime

when an iron chinned aggression based fighter starts to lose his punch resistance, he's past his prime

when a dancer with nice footwork is starting to fight more flat footed and they cant move as energetically...past prime

when a technician isnt pulling off the skilled offensive/defensive moves as efficently or as quickly as he once did...past prime

generally the speed based fighters drop off first, and the power punchers are able to last longer in their primes, as power is indeed the last thing to go in a fighter


pretty simple really

[hayZ]

a fighter is past prime when his main attributes start to drop off

so when a reflex and speed based fighter starts to lose the blinding speed and slick reflexes he once had, he's past his prime

when an iron chinned aggression based fighter starts to lose his punch resistance, he's past his prime

when a dancer with nice footwork is starting to fight more flat footed and they cant move as energetically...past prime

when a technician isnt pulling off the skilled offensive/defensive moves as efficently or as quickly as he once did...past prime

generally the speed based fighters drop off first, and the power punchers are able to last longer in their primes, as power is indeed the last thing to go in a fighter


pretty simple really

Good post. Ali relied heavily on his speed/reflexes, he wasn't a dumb fighter like you're trying to make out pre-layoff, still a very smart fighter, its just he got smarter post lay-off because he had more fights. He wasn't the same fighter post lay-off every boxing historian will tell you that.

[StarshipTrooper]

a fighter is past prime when his main attributes start to drop off

so when a reflex and speed based fighter starts to lose the blinding speed and slick reflexes he once had, he's past his prime

when an iron chinned aggression based fighter starts to lose his punch resistance, he's past his prime

when a dancer with nice footwork is starting to fight more flat footed and they cant move as energetically...past prime

when a technician isnt pulling off the skilled offensive/defensive moves as efficently or as quickly as he once did...past prime

generally the speed based fighters drop off first, and the power punchers are able to last longer in their primes, as power is indeed the last thing to go in a fighter

pretty simple really

Bingo! Thread closed

Poet

[joseph5620]

a fighter is past prime when his main attributes start to drop off

so when a reflex and speed based fighter starts to lose the blinding speed and slick reflexes he once had, he's past his prime

when an iron chinned aggression based fighter starts to lose his punch resistance, he's past his prime

when a dancer with nice footwork is starting to fight more flat footed and they cant move as energetically...past prime

when a technician isnt pulling off the skilled offensive/defensive moves as efficently or as quickly as he once did...past prime

generally the speed based fighters drop off first, and the power punchers are able to last longer in their primes, as power is indeed the last thing to go in a fighter


pretty simple really

Excellent post that pretty much ends this debate.

[ozziememz]

norton for me

[sonnyboyx2]

When did Muhammad Ali start to slide ? ive been watching a lot of Ali the last few days trying to work out when exactly he started to slide.

I think it was around the time he lost to Norton and labored against Lyle, Bugner 2 but i believe the Wepner fight might have taken a lot out of him, although he did not take much if any punishment in the fight it was a grueling pace for him, i think he dropped down to the canvas at the end of the fight through tiredness if i remember right.

Lyle was arguably infront in the fight, although i had it a draw at the time of the stoppage.


I thought his balance looked horrible against Bugner 2 and that is usually an indication of a fighter who is on the slide. If you disagree with me then im sure you'd agree that if Ali was not on the slide before Frazier fight he certainly was after it.

Then came the 3rd Frazier fight.

Since the 1st Frazier fight Ali had looked decent/good against Ellis without looking spectacular, he put in a poor performance against Mathis in a dull fight, he beat Blin but not really worth mentioning besides the fact he scored a stoppage, he had what i believe was an impressive performance against a tough Chuvalo whom put more pressure on him this time and had a little more success, then he fought Quarry and i thought Ali looked in great form for this fight, he beat Quarry with ease. Patterson actually won a few early rounds but i think Ali was playing with him because he knew eventually the extra size would take its toll, same story with Bob Foster really, he won a few rounds with the jab but once Ali established his size advantage he put Foster down multiple times. I thought Ali looked excellent against Joe Bugner 1 and then came the loss to Norton which is somewhat surprising to me because of how good i thought Ali looked against Bugner.

I know Ali still went on to beat ,Frazier, Shavers, Norton again but i think that is mark of how good he was more so than how much he had left. Most people have their reservations about whether he won the Norton 3 fight to (not me)

So when do you think Muhammad Ali start to slide, he does not necessarily have to be shot but you get where im coming from

Muhammad started to slide March 9th 1971

[Silencers]

He wasn't the same after the layoff.