When did Muhammad Ali start to slide ?

[TheGreatA]

Hi Folks, lets not forget Patterson was a more concussive one punch hitter than any version of Ali. His left hand was also actually clocked as quicker than Alis. No surprise that he beat Henry quicker.

You've got to admit *****, Ali was slicker against Cooper the second time. He seemed to be much more clumsy and raw in the 1963 fight.

One thing that does seem to crop up on the forums is about Ali's foes such as Cooper, Terrell and Folley who after fighting Ali are beaten by less than stellar competition. They are therefore discounted as being not that good in the first place. Its very wrong to do this, boxing is a sport where losses and beatings can physically, mentally and psychologically depreciate a fighter. Taking blows to the head and body can cause some fighters to age very quickly in ring terms. Cooper as it happens still fought well into the late 60s, but it is unfair to expect Ali to have handled any version of Cooper better than Patterson.

I can't see Cooper lasting with Ali who fought Cleveland Williams. Williams was shot but the way Ali fought, the speed, the movement and the power he put behind his combinations would have been too much for Cooper.

Ali was simply over-confident the first time and overly cautious the second time against Cooper.

[Dynamite Kid]

I can't see Cooper lasting with Ali who fought Cleveland Williams. Williams was shot but the way Ali fought, the speed, the movement and the power he put behind his combinations would have been too much for Cooper.

Ali was simply over-confident the first time and overly cautious the second time against Cooper.

I second that but i also think Ali was open to left hooks and that is why Cooper managed to drop him with it.

I do think that Frazier in his prime would beat Ali at any point his career though. I think that first fight took more out of Joe that it did Ali.

[Sugarj]

I must admit I dont share the view that a peak Frazier always beats a peak Ali. The Ali of 71 was good but nowhere near as good as four years previous.

Ali was faster, more ellusive, had better reflexes, was more accurate and able to move better and for longer. The second Frazier fight (allowing for BOTH fighters comparative decline!) was more indicative of how prime Ali would beat prime Frazier. In 1971 Ali couldn't dance, hit and move for 12 rounds, let alone 15! It took him a few years post layoff to find his legs again, he admits this in his own biography.

[Dynamite Kid]

I must admit I dont share the view that a peak Frazier always beats a peak Ali. The Ali of 71 was good but nowhere near as good as four years previous.

Ali was faster, more ellusive, had better reflexes, was more accurate and able to move better and for longer. The second Frazier fight (allowing for BOTH fighters comparative decline!) was more indicative of how prime Ali would beat prime Frazier. In 1971 Ali couldn't dance, hit and move for 12 rounds, let alone 15! It took him a few years post layoff to find his legs again, he admits this in his own biography.

I think you are right, but!! Ali was not saavy enough to deal with Joe's style untill he had shared the ring with him and knew what to expect, so thats why i dont see Ali beating him in his prime either.

[joseph5620]

Wrong, most people would call that a prime Ali. This is an olympic gold medalist we're talking about here. The man beat Sonny Liston for the title in his very next fight. So tell me, when the hell did he finally reach his prime?

So Ali was in his prime when he won the medal? And you will have a hard time finding people who believe Ali was in his prime at 21 after just 18 pro fights..

[Obama]

If Ali wasn't in his prime against Frazier in the first fight, Marco Antonio Barrera wasn't in his prime against Pacquio. Just cuz he isn't peak athletically doesn't mean it's not his prime. If we went with the peak athletic argument then everyone would have a 1-3 year prime.

So Ali was in his prime when he won the medal? And you will have a hard time finding people who believe Ali was in his prime at 21 after just 18 pro fights..

You should answer my question before you ask me another one.

[joseph5620]

If Ali wasn't in his prime against Frazier in the first fight, Marco Antonio Barrera wasn't in his prime against Pacquio. Just cuz he isn't peak athletically doesn't mean it's not his prime. If we went with the peak athletic argument then everyone would have a 1-3 year prime.

Were talking about Ali. You can't compare one boxer to another when talking about primes.

You should answer my question before you ask me another one.

I think the answer is obvious.

[Obama]

I think the answer is obvious.

lol, Ali's prime is obvious? You gave me 1 year, 1967. So what other years are included? Apparently not 1963. So at the very best it could be is 1964-1967. Wow, guess what, 3 year prime. Wonder where I typed that before...

The man was only 29 when he fought Frazier the first time, had never been in bruising battle in his career yet (Jones fight being the closet thing to one), yet he was not prime? Not buyin it. He didn't look as good as he did in the mid 60s cuz that's the first time he met a guy with the proper abilities to beat him. Half decent chin, fast mobile target, high endurance, all things that would have given Ali hell at any point in his entire career.

Another interesting thing to note, Heavyweights tend to remain prime in their later years more than the lighter weight divisions.

[hayZ]

lol, Ali's prime is obvious? You gave me 1 year, 1967. So what other years are included? Apparently not 1963. So at the very best it could be is 1964-1967. Wow, guess what, 3 year prime. Wonder where I typed that before...

The man was only 29 when he fought Frazier the first time, had never been in bruising battle in his career yet (Jones fight being the closet thing to one), yet he was not prime? Not buyin it. He didn't look as good as he did in the mid 60s cuz that's the first time he met a guy with the proper abilities to beat him. Half decent chin, fast mobile target, high endurance, all things that would have given Ali hell at any point in his entire career.

Another interesting thing to note, Heavyweights tend to remain prime in their later years more than the lighter weight divisions.

Ali had a style which relied HEAVILY on him being lightning fast and agile. Post Layoff he was fast but not as fast as before. Are you trying to tell me Ali was the same? Come on man, all you have to do is watch the fights. It's simply unreal for you to claim that, just by watching him fight you can see that. Prime Ali beats Frazier more convincingly but Frazier is a bull, he would always give Ali a good fight.

[Sugarj]

Hi *****, yep I'd agree..............most fighters have a 1-3 year athletic prime. Most of the greats including Ali, Louis, Robinson, Marciano, Leonard, Holmes, Hatton, Tyson, all have primes of around this time. That said many do achieve amazing things and put in terrific performances many years post prime like Foreman, Moore, Hopkins, Duran as well as some of the above guys.

I totally see the argument for a fighter gaining ring smarts post prime which can lead to him beating a guy that he wouldn't previously have beaten when in his prime, but I think this can only be reserved for some of the true legends of the sport. It happens fairly rarely to be honest.

As for Ali vs Frazier. Yes Ali was only 29, and these days that is prime or even pre prime for a heavyweight. But from the turn of the century through till the mid 70s a guy over thirty was often considered a bit old or past it, think Dempsey, Louis, Patterson, Charles. Walcott was considered ancient at 37! Dempsey, Louis, Patterson, Ali, Frazier all entered world class in their early 20s and were considered post prime in their early 30s. It was reflected in their performances and in the opinions of experts.

Likewise, when Ali came back, if you watch the Quarry and Bonavena fights he was clearly not what he was. He danced three rounds with Quarry and admitted in his biography that he felt exhausted afterwards.....it wasn't even a hard three rounds! He fought Bonavena largely flat footed and got hit a fair bit, a far cry from the fifteen rounds he spent with either Chuvalo or Terrell.

Frazier would have given a prime Ali alot to think about, no two ways about it.....but Ali was so damn mobile and hard to hit that I honestly cant see Frazier actually winning. Frazier would be chasing the ring down just like in their second fight, being hit 4 times or so to his one. The only reason the Thrilla in Manilla was so close was because Ali didn't dance..........same with the 1971 fight.

I'd be very suprised if anyone is prepared to watch Ali vs Frazier 2 and still think Frazier would have beaten the prime Ali. Granted they were both a touch post prime in 1974, but it showcases how Frazier would have tried to deal with a mobile, dancing Ali.........and he wouldn't have faired too well in my opinion.

Oh.....and the Barrera that lost to Pacquiou was a touch post prime IMO, I'd have said Barrera's prime was 1999-2002, these years included the first Moralles fight and the Hamed fight among others.