When did Muhammad Ali start to slide ?

[johnmaff36]

Thats nonsense. Any guy who says that Ali (or Clay at the time) was in his prime in the first Cooper fight, doesnt know what hes talking about. You could see him physically getting bigger and better by the fight. Look at Liston1 and then Liston2 to see the differences.

[Sugarj]

Yes even one year later in Liston 2 it was a bigger, stronger more confident Ali, dancing but not quite as frantically around the ring as in the first round of the first fight. I still think Liston threw the fight, but Ali did quite rightly seem to improve fight by fight.

[TheGreatA]

Yes even one year later in Liston 2 it was a bigger, stronger more confident Ali, dancing but not quite as frantically around the ring as in the first round of the first fight. I still think Liston threw the fight, but Ali did quite rightly seem to improve fight by fight.

Well, in fact Ali weighed 206 pounds in the rematch and 211 pounds in the first fight. 207 against Cooper the first time, 201 against Cooper the second time.

Seems pretty big here to me:

[Sugarj]

Is that actually true GreatA? That Ali was lighter for the Liston return? You may have me there. He didn't look lighter to me, he seemed more muscular up top than a year previous. Either that or Liston looked smaller the second time round.

I did know that Ali was very light for Cooper 2, he wanted to be super fast for Henry.....who was no slouch himself. The Ali of Cooper 2 was much slicker than that of Cooper 1. In 3 years Ali had addressed alot of technical flaws.

[TheGreatA]

Is that actually true GreatA? That Ali was lighter for the Liston return? You may have me there. He didn't look lighter to me, he seemed more muscular up top than a year previous. Either that or Liston looked smaller the second time round.

I did know that Ali was very light for Cooper 2, he wanted to be super fast for Henry.....who was no slouch himself. The Ali of Cooper 2 was much slicker than that of Cooper 1. In 3 years Ali had addressed alot of technical flaws.

It's true.

Here's pictures of the weigh-in for the rematch:





Weigh-in for the first fight:




1:25

I always thought that the second Cooper fight was a bit of a disappointment.

[Sugarj]

Hi GreatA, I couldn't tell from the pics what the weight was but I'll believe you, I guess 5 lbs on a heavyweight is neither here or there but Ali did look in great shape for the return, less spindly almost.

As for Cooper 2, it was obvious that Ali was all business, no shuffles, little showboating, no reckless mistakes.....a careful performance till Henry was cut. Cooper did box quite well, but I dont remember actually giving him a round.

[Obama]

Hi GreatA, I couldn't tell from the pics what the weight was but I'll believe you, I guess 5 lbs on a heavyweight is neither here or there but Ali did look in great shape for the return, less spindly almost.

As for Cooper 2, it was obvious that Ali was all business, no shuffles, little showboating, no reckless mistakes.....a careful performance till Henry was cut. Cooper did box quite well, but I dont remember actually giving him a round.

After a 'more prime' Ali TKOed him in 6, on cuts once again, a post-prime Patterson KOed him in 4. I don't see an improvement in Ali's performance aside from not getting clocked. He employed new tactics, but it's not necessarily to say the old tactics were rookie ones. They worked just fine, it's his over confidence that got in the way.

[TheGreatA]

Hi GreatA, I couldn't tell from the pics what the weight was but I'll believe you, I guess 5 lbs on a heavyweight is neither here or there but Ali did look in great shape for the return, less spindly almost.

As for Cooper 2, it was obvious that Ali was all business, no shuffles, little showboating, no reckless mistakes.....a careful performance till Henry was cut. Cooper did box quite well, but I dont remember actually giving him a round.

You can hear him say it in the Ali vs Chuvalo video I posted.

He fought so cautiously that the Cooper II bout would have probably gone the distance if not for Cooper's tendency to cut. Then again I guess that was the plan, to cut Cooper and fight cautiously until then.

Patterson went in for the kill from round 1 and was simply too fast for Henry Cooper. Ali himself was quite surprised at the ease Patterson dispatched Cooper, he had picked Cooper to win based on his experiences with both. Thought Patterson's chin couldn't take the left hook but it turned out to be the opposite.

[Sugarj]

Hi Folks, lets not forget Patterson was a more concussive one punch hitter than any version of Ali. His left hand was also actually clocked as quicker than Alis. No surprise that he beat Henry quicker.

You've got to admit *****, Ali was slicker against Cooper the second time. He seemed to be much more clumsy and raw in the 1963 fight.

One thing that does seem to crop up on the forums is about Ali's foes such as Cooper, Terrell and Folley who after fighting Ali are beaten by less than stellar competition. They are therefore discounted as being not that good in the first place. Its very wrong to do this, boxing is a sport where losses and beatings can physically, mentally and psychologically depreciate a fighter. Taking blows to the head and body can cause some fighters to age very quickly in ring terms. Cooper as it happens still fought well into the late 60s, but it is unfair to expect Ali to have handled any version of Cooper better than Patterson.

[Obama]

Hi Folks, lets not forget Patterson was a more concussive one punch hitter than any version of Ali. His left hand was also actually clocked as quicker than Alis. No surprise that he beat Henry quicker.

You've got to admit *****, Ali was slicker against Cooper the second time. He seemed to be much more clumsy and raw in the 1963 fight.

One thing that does seem to crop up on the forums is about Ali's foes such as Cooper, Terrell and Folley who after fighting Ali are beaten by less than stellar competition. They are therefore discounted as being not that good in the first place. Its very wrong to do this, boxing is a sport where losses and beatings can physically, mentally and psychologically depreciate a fighter. Taking blows to the head and body can cause some fighters to age very quickly in ring terms. Cooper as it happens still fought well into the late 60s, but it is unfair to expect Ali to have handled any version of Cooper better than Patterson.

Slicker doesn't necessarily equate to better for me. Michael Jordan became slicker in the 90s than he was in the 80s. Would I say he was a better player however? No...Air Jordan was more 'raw' but the athleticism made up for it.

Cooper was B level, I give Ali full credit for beating a B level fighter. His record was less spotty after Ali than before...

Terrell I also give him credit for, a semi-elite win. Ali ended Terrell's prime. He wasn't the same anymore.

But Folley? FOLLEY? Folley had two feet in the grave man. Man was elite in his prime, but damn, he was over the hill against Ali. Still, over the hill Folley is just as good as a prime Cooper.