Muhammed Ali And Joe Louis: Who's The Greatest Heavyweight?

[Sugarj]

Hi GreatA, true! Louis did break one of Max's vertabrae (or at least this was reported!), but this was towards the end of the round as Schmelling was on the ropes and actually partially turned his back on Louis before receiving the blow. He apparently screamed! He took his blows like a man on the ropes but someone like Ali would have clinched or circled.

Please watch the fight, its only two minutes or so long. If anyone else doesn't think that Schmelling's performance even prior to being on the ropes was poor......I'm ready.

There is the view that Max hated being a flag flyer for the ****'s and that the pressure from Germany may have caused him to have bad stress or an undisclosed panic attack. These men were under intense pressure, but Schmelling's performance was well out of character.

As for Joe cornering a peak Ali..........naa. 'Shuffling Joe' had very slow feet in comparison to Ali. Ali went back faster than Joe had the ability to go forwards! Plus Joe was not really a pressure fighter in the Marciano, Frazier, Liston, Foreman or Tyson vein. Just watch Liston in round one against even a pre prime Ali in their first fight, Liston pressured Ali hard in the round and landed next to nothing!

[Poet682006]

Just watch Liston in round one against even a pre prime Ali in their first fight, Liston pressured Ali hard in the round and landed next to nothing!

But Liston's handspeed was no where near Louis'.....it makes a difference.

Poet

[d0n]

If they had to fight...I struggle to see Louis winning; that ain't the point, though. Take them in their own eras. Ali told us all he was the greatest of all time and we had to believe him, because Joe was long gone and Ali WAS pretty damn brilliant.

Although Ali did have amazing opponents, I think Joe's were better in those days. He overcame alot of amazing odds and in his 25 title defences...still a record...he finished 22 of them by KO.

He KO'd THE(in those days :P) Max Baer. Never seen Max take a beating like that before. He did lose against Schmeling, but came back and KO'd him in round one.

[TheGreatA]

Hi GreatA, true! Louis did break one of Max's vertabrae (or at least this was reported!), but this was towards the end of the round as Schmelling was on the ropes and actually partially turned his back on Louis before receiving the blow. He apparently screamed! He took his blows like a man on the ropes but someone like Ali would have clinched or circled.

Please watch the fight, its only two minutes or so long. If anyone else doesn't think that Schmelling's performance even prior to being on the ropes was poor......I'm ready.

There is the view that Max hated being a flag flyer for the ****'s and that the pressure from Germany may have caused him to have bad stress or an undisclosed panic attack. These men were under intense pressure, but Schmelling's performance was well out of character.

As for Joe cornering a peak Ali..........naa. 'Shuffling Joe' had very slow feet in comparison to Ali. Ali went back faster than Joe had the ability to go forwards! Plus Joe was not really a pressure fighter in the Marciano, Frazier, Liston, Foreman or Tyson vein. Just watch Liston in round one against even a pre prime Ali in their first fight, Liston pressured Ali hard in the round and landed next to nothing!

Schmeling seemed to fight his usual fight from what I see. The crushing right at 2:48 stuns Schmeling and the following body punch at 2:51 crippled him.



First fight:



I don't think of Liston as much of a pressure fighter either. He was actually comparable to Louis because he rarely forced the fight and patiently waited for opportunities. Against Ali he was forced to be aggressive and couldn't handle Ali's fast footwork and head movement.

Eddie Machen and Bert Whitehurst were able to take advantage of this earlier in Liston's career.

I can't see Louis being frustrated to the point that Liston was though.

[Poet682006]

I don't think of Liston as much of a pressure fighter either. He was actually comparable to Louis because he rarely forced the fight and patiently waited for opportunities. Against Ali he was forced to be aggressive and couldn't handle Ali's fast footwork and head movement.

Eddie Machen and Bert Whitehurst were able to take advantage of this earlier in Liston's career.

I can't see Louis being frustrated to the point that Liston was though.

From what I've read, Liston admired Louis and patterned much of his fighting style after him.

Poet

[Sugarj]

Hi GreatA, I cant believe you just said:

'Schmeling seemed to fight his usual fight from what I see.'

Did we see the same fight! Schmelling was awful, not one jab!!!!!!! Only one right hand. The limpest, most pulled attempts at infighting around 2:25 - 2:30. He offerred no form of attack or defense.

Schmelling was a great fighter, but that was in no way 'his usual fight'.


Oh and Hi Poet,

I agree that Louis had faster hands than Liston, but I'd argue that Liston had better mobility and could cut off a ring better, plus his reach was much longer than Louis's. Plus in the first round of the first Ali fight Liston put more pressure on Ali than Joe even did to Schmelling. I really cant see Louis easily cornering a peak Ali....too nimble on his feet and Ali's jab was faster and Ali had the longer reach, too much for Joe to get past for me.

[mickey malone]

Problem with Ali, is that too many people believed him when he had far too much trouble backing it up.. Louis just got on with it.. No mouth, no jokes, no political issues... Just boxing, boxing, boxing, and whose next... Not larking about like Malcolm X & Martin Luther King (who wern't boxers by the way) Louis was a far more focused & genuine bonafide champ... No Bollocks... Just the muck & bullets put in front of him.. Ali ****ed about too much to be placed above Louis & with an inferior resume to.. Louis's the man.. Every minute of every day.... This can be seen in the demeaning way that Ali fights... Keeping men up longer than they have to be!!! What's that all about???? Unwarranted abuse to Frazier ring any bells???... He aint no Joe Louis, that's 4 sure.... If Louis was half as good with his mouth, the gap would be a darn site wider...

Can't wait for the bollocks that comes back over this... lol....

[Sugarj]

Ha ha, dont worry Mickey, no bollox for you.

I guess it depends how you rate greatness doesn't it? When comparing the two I am only looking from the point of view as to who would win in my opinion, should they have actually met in the ring.

I think both resumes are close. Louis didn't face too many black folks in the 30s or early 40s. But both fought and beat great opponents, Ali famously when he was the underdog twice (7-1 and 3-1, Liston and Foreman!). When was Louis ever an underdog, let alone prove everyone wrong?

I choose not to compare them as men. For all Joe's humility many were more entertained by Ali who really transended the sport (poems, shuffles and all). For all Joe's patriotism many admired Ali's stand on the Vietnam war. Joe advertised cigarettes (yes boxers knew it was bad for them!) and fell into ******* addiction. Ali cheated on his wives (serially) and was intensely cruel to Frazier in his mockery.

I hope this at least adds a few thoughts. For every Louis fan there will be an Ali fan. I'm glad I'm a fan of both for all their negatives.

[TheGreatA]

Hi GreatA, I cant believe you just said:

'Schmeling seemed to fight his usual fight from what I see.'

Did we see the same fight! Schmelling was awful, not one jab!!!!!!! Only one right hand. The limpest, most pulled attempts at infighting around 2:25 - 2:30. He offerred no form of attack or defense.

Schmelling was a great fighter, but that was in no way 'his usual fight'.

Well, you must not be a big fan of Schmeling's style then because he never had much use for the jab and had a unique style of in-fighting which mostly consisted of a repeated right hand to the body and a right uppercut.

He turned the shoulders to deflect punches as his form of defense, to the point where he was almost sideways. Very, very awkward opponent to fight, with a great counter right hand, but Louis had him figured out in the rematch.

[Poet682006]

BTW, the discussion going on in this thread is how Boxing Scene in general and the Boxing History Section in particular is SUPPOSED to work.....amazing how enlightening these conversations are when the trolls are barred from mucking it up.

PS. Someone brought up the Louis - Conn fight earlier. That fight was a lot closer than is frequently made out. It was scored on the rounds system and Conn had a 2 round lead on 2 cards going into the 13th and the 3rd card was even.

Poet