Muhammed Ali And Joe Louis: Who's The Greatest Heavyweight?

[Sugarj]

He had some use for the jab, more than zero. As for the body right and and uppercut, yes it was a favorite of his........but usually it carried some weight. I'll go and watch that bit from Schmelling 2 again, the limpest punches ever attempted in a title fight. Shocking!

I'm no Schmelling nuthugger, I dont watch his fights daily but he used his jab much better against Sharkey and Baer from memory.

I honestly think Louis would have gone to convincingly beat the Schmelling that turned up for fight one. Your right, Louis had him figured out but hell, even Joe must have been suprised by Max's lack of resistance. The guy repeatedly hurt him in fight one, knocked him down twice and eventually out.

[mickey malone]

Ha ha, dont worry Mickey, no bollox for you.

I guess it depends how you rate greatness doesn't it? When comparing the two I am only looking from the point of view as to who would win in my opinion, should they have actually met in the ring.

I think both resumes are close. Louis didn't face too many black folks in the 30s or early 40s. But both fought and beat great opponents, Ali famously when he was the underdog twice (7-1 and 3-1, Liston and Foreman!). When was Louis ever an underdog, let alone prove everyone wrong?

I choose not to compare them as men. For all Joe's humility many were more entertained by Ali who really transended the sport (poems, shuffles and all). For all Joe's patriotism many admired Ali's stand on the Vietnam war. Joe advertised cigarettes (yes boxers knew it was bad for them!) and fell into ******* addiction. Ali cheated on his wives (serially) and was intensely cruel to Frazier in his mockery.

I hope this at least adds a few thoughts. For every Louis fan there will be an Ali fan. I'm glad I'm a fan of both for all their negatives.

You're one of the best posters out there, but I'm done with fighting styles now.. To me, it's just down to the nitty gritty.. This arguments been going on for nearly 50 years.. And all I know, is that Louis had a better record, more fights, more title defenses, more KO's, more longevity, less loses, less distractions, less titanic struggles, less lay offs, less gob & less controversy.. Everything was cut & dried with Louis.. No long counts, no split gloves, no phantom punches, no abuse or intimidation b4 fights.. Just straight forward business as usual, with the ability to destroy fighters in rematches... Well.... What do you expect from the very best????

[Sugarj]

Your a top poster too Mickey. I'm in full agreement with Poet that these threads are great without the Trolls etc. Its good to battle knowledge with proper historians like yourself, GreatA, Poet, McCoy and many others I could mention. Imagine how much time we could all p##s away with a few beers and a decent fight film collection.

Anyway, looks like your decided on Louis. I have to shade Ali for me, but both are my boxing idols. The issue of longevity is arguable, while Louis had a longer reign, Ali mixed in world class for longer and had alonger career. Anyway six of one or a half dozen of another!!!!

My Grandfather once met Joe Louis, I was priviliged to have shaken a hand that had shaken the hand of the great man. May he rest in peace.

[mickey malone]

Your a top poster too Mickey. I'm in full agreement with Poet that these threads are great without the Trolls etc. Its good to battle knowledge with proper historians like yourself, GreatA, Poet, McCoy and many others I could mention. Imagine how much time we could all p##s away with a few beers and a decent fight film collection.

Anyway, looks like your decided on Louis. I have to shade Ali for me, but both are my boxing idols. The issue of longevity is arguable, while Louis had a longer reign, Ali mixed in world class for longer and had alonger career. Anyway six of one or a half dozen of another!!!!

My Grandfather once met Joe Louis, I was priviliged to have shaken a hand that had shaken the hand of the great man. May he rest in peace.

That's cool man... God, we'd get too pissed to work the video lol...
I thought that as I wrote... Continuity being the better word, but oh, what the F**K... It's been a long day lol....
And ****!... You were right the other day... It was a left hook that put Hatton over.. Always hold my hands up...

[TheGreatA]

He had some use for the jab, more than zero. As for the body right and and uppercut, yes it was a favorite of his........but usually it carried some weight. I'll go and watch that bit from Schmelling 2 again, the limpest punches ever attempted in a title fight. Shocking!

I'm no Schmelling nuthugger, I dont watch his fights daily but he used his jab much better against Sharkey and Baer from memory.

I honestly think Louis would have gone to convincingly beat the Schmelling that turned up for fight one. Your right, Louis had him figured out but hell, even Joe must have been suprised by Max's lack of resistance. The guy repeatedly hurt him in fight one, knocked him down twice and eventually out.

Watch Schmeling vs Baer. His right to the body-right uppercut combination had no power in it, he just kept throwing and looked as if he was winning the rounds because Baer did very little (until KO'ing him that is).

Schmeling did use the jab, mostly as a range-finder, but you won't see him using it against Louis even in the first fight because he knew Louis had a better one. He would instead try to counter over the jab with his right hand, a highly successful strategy in their first fight.

To me the big difference in the fight was that Louis came out much more aggressively and managed to hurt Schmeling early. In the first fight Louis tried to figure out an awkward opponent who instead had him figured out.

Schmeling was not a shot fighter even after this fight in my opinion. He was coming off three easy wins over decent opponents, and went onto KO the hyped European and German champion Adolf Heuser in just one round. He was then drafted to the army and served as a paratrooper.

[TheGreatA]

[GJC]

Hi GreatA, I cant believe you just said:

'Schmeling seemed to fight his usual fight from what I see.'

Did we see the same fight! Schmelling was awful, not one jab!!!!!!! Only one right hand. The limpest, most pulled attempts at infighting around 2:25 - 2:30. He offerred no form of attack or defense.

Schmelling was a great fighter, but that was in no way 'his usual fight'.


Oh and Hi Poet,

I agree that Louis had faster hands than Liston, but I'd argue that Liston had better mobility and could cut off a ring better, plus his reach was much longer than Louis's. Plus in the first round of the first Ali fight Liston put more pressure on Ali than Joe even did to Schmelling. I really cant see Louis easily cornering a peak Ali....too nimble on his feet and Ali's jab was faster and Ali had the longer reach, too much for Joe to get past for me.

Not the best fight to give an analysis on Schmeling, it was as near to an execution as i've seen in HW history.

[Sugarj]

Yes, I've just had a look at Louis Schmelling 1 and to be honest there isn't much in the way of jab work from Schmelling. I guess his plan was largely based around his right hand (he'd detected that Louis dropped his left after jabbing).

I'll take another look at Schmelling vs Baer. Savage knockout by Baer, but a fairly even fight up till then.

But I still think there was something wrong with Schmelling for the second Louis fight. Very poor effort in my opinion! That said he did suffer.

[TheGreatA]

Yes, I've just had a look at Louis Schmelling 1 and to be honest there isn't much in the way of jab work from Schmelling. I guess his plan was largely based around his right hand (he'd detected that Louis dropped his left after jabbing).

I'll take another look at Schmelling vs Baer. Savage knockout by Baer, but a fairly even fight up till then.

But I still think there was something wrong with Schmelling for the second Louis fight. Very poor effort in my opinion! That said he did suffer.

Maybe. I think he simply didn't expect such a furious attack from the usually patiently stalking Louis. He was hit with a terrific right hand that stunned him and a crippling body punch that pretty much finished him. The rest of it was just an unnecessary beating.

Might not be the best comparison but Montell Griffin gave a tentative Roy Jones trouble for many rounds with his unorthodox style and was even on the scorecards at the time of the DQ. In the rematch a much more aggressive Roy Jones destroyed the unexpecting Griffin in one.

I believe Griffin later said something to the effect of that "Roy Jones was scared of trying to box me which is why he knocked me out in the first round"...

[Sugarj]

Forgetting both Schmelling vs Louis matches I do like watching Jones vs Griffin 1 and 2. Griffin was so controlled and was executing the best game plan possible against prime Jones in fight one.

Its a fantastic example of a comparison but I feel that Schmelling at least had a chance to execute a gameplan, Montell did try and punch back while he was with us! Jones came out for fight 2 loading up his finest left hook. If I was Jones I wouldn't have got involved in another chess match........too risky. Jones knew he had the capability to stop Griffin, he'd done it (controversially in the first fight) before and wasted no time.