If Rumble In The Jungle Happened In A Cage

[0Rooster4Life0]

Saying the Ropes took away some power could very well be true..But what people cant deny is during that time Foreman fought Norton and Frazier, in BOTH fights Foreman KEY punch was the uppercut, it destroyed them both. In Rumble in The Jungle Ali leaned back which made it impossible for Foreman to land his Key Uppercut, I think he threw 2 Uppercuts the whole fight , and i think he missed them both....


ROOSTER

[TheGreatA]

Saying the Ropes took away some power could very well be true..But what people cant deny is during that time Foreman fought Norton and Frazier, in BOTH fights Foreman KEY punch was the uppercut, it destroyed them both. In Rumble in The Jungle Ali leaned back which made it impossible for Foreman to land his Key Uppercut, I think he threw 2 Uppercuts the whole fight , and i think he missed them both....


ROOSTER

He landed a few uppercuts on Ali, I think he landed a really powerful one in one of the rounds, but Ali was much different stylistically than Norton and Frazier were and would have always leaned away from the uppercut anyway, ropes or not. Norton and Frazier were both crouching pressure fighters.

Lets not make this fight out to be some kind of a one-sided beating Ali took until Foreman collapsed from exhaustion. Ali landed every punch on the book and stunned Foreman several times with counter punches. He was up on all scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

Foreman was never allowed to throw the kind of punches he threw against Norton and Frazier.

[TheGreatA]

He landed a few uppercuts on Ali, I think he landed a really powerful one in one of the rounds, but Ali was much different stylistically than Norton and Frazier were and would have always leaned away from the uppercut anyway, ropes or not. Norton and Frazier were both crouching pressure fighters.

Lets not make this fight out to be some kind of a one-sided beating Ali took until Foreman collapsed from exhaustion. Ali landed every punch on the book and stunned Foreman several times with counter punches. He was up on all scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

Foreman was never allowed to throw the kind of punches he threw against Norton and Frazier.

[0Rooster4Life0]

He landed a few uppercuts on Ali, I think he landed a really powerful one in one of the rounds, but Ali was much different stylistically than Norton and Frazier were and would have always leaned away from the uppercut anyway, ropes or not. Norton and Frazier were both crouching pressure fighters.

Lets not make this fight out to be some kind of a one-sided beating Ali took until Foreman collapsed from exhaustion. Ali landed every punch on the book and stunned Foreman several times with counter punches. He was up on all scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

Foreman was never allowed to throw the kind of punches he threw against Norton and Frazier.

I never said it was a one sided beating.

But at the same time we can not ignore the facts, Im not saying the Rope-a-Dope is illigal etc, But its Clear that it changed Foreman game plan, Foreman threw More Uppercuts in the first 10 seconds of the frazier fight then he did in Africa. And this is why Ali used the Ropes, and it was genious.


Ali saw how Foreman fought and found a way to beat him, Leaning back on the ropes to take the uppercut out of the fight and at the same time exhausting George, It was a smart tactic. I take nothing away from Ali, None at all, But at the same time we must not pretend the Rope-a-dope did nothing, If it did Nothing Ali wouldnt have used it.

Once again taking Nothing away from Ali.


ROOSTER

[TheGreatA]

I never said it was a one sided beating.

But at the same time we can not ignore the facts, Im not saying the Rope-a-Dope is illigal etc, But its Clear that it changed Foreman game plan, Foreman threw More Uppercuts in the first 10 seconds of the frazier fight then he did in Africa. And this is why Ali used the Ropes, and it was genious.


Ali saw how Foreman fought and found a way to beat him, Leaning back on the ropes to take the uppercut out of the fight and at the same time exhausting George, It was a smart tactic. I take nothing away from Ali, None at all, But at the same time we must not pretend the Rope-a-dope did nothing, If it did Nothing Ali wouldnt have used it.

Once again taking Nothing away from Ali.


ROOSTER

Sorry I didn't mean to direct that part of the post to you but rather meant it in general. It's a bit of a myth that Foreman was somehow giving Ali a beating.

I don't think the rope-a-dope was the way to take away Foreman's uppercut. Foreman had success landing it from the clinch several times. Peralta and Young took it away by use of smart footwork.

Frazier and Norton were simply very open for the uppercut due to their styles.

[LondonRingRules]

Lets not make this fight out to be some kind of a one-sided beating Ali took until Foreman collapsed from exhaustion. Ali landed every punch on the book and stunned Foreman several times with counter punches. He was up on all scorecards at the time of the stoppage.

Foreman was never allowed to throw the kind of punches he threw against Norton and Frazier.

** While I agree with the last paragraph above, let's keep in mind that Ali had no choice but to go to the ropes which is why Dundee loosened the ropes. They knew the ring was a slow one, and of course, in between the pummelings, Ali took every opening he had a breath for.

Foreman was exhausted by direct visage and every account of the bout from his efforts. He was unable to do proper sparring the month before the fight which is partially why he started off looking so clumsy. Foreman may have gotten a few sharp buzzes from Ali rights, but the beating Foreman handed out had Ali out on his feet as he as confessed numerous times. It was a world class beating that only a Foreman or Tyson could administer. Proof is Ali was never the same after this bout, barely at clubfighter level against Wepner in his next bout. He never showed any class over subsequent defenses save Coopman and Dunn and looked horrible when he wasn't in a major struggle.

Foreman also ruined the fine form Of Holy who looked crap ever since save the mysterious Tyson match. Doc Feelgood Ferdie never liked Foreman yet was willing to admit Foreman took a lot out of Ali, enough that they steered him away from the rematch.

Ali did land every punch in the book, including a key rabbit punch after George ended up with his neck stretched across the ropes, simultaneously popping his jugular and cerebellum at a most opportune time, setting up the highlight KO that arguably George beat the count on.

The scorecards have been changed in boxrec several times. I've seen them split before. One judge doesn't even give George a single round, bringing up the specious scoring of too many Ali bouts to mention.

Look, technically it's a legit win and Ali's best, but the conditions could never be duplicated and all indications are the team felt they really dodged a bullet with this fight.

Given additionally what we know of George later, he would've have been at his absolute best and most ferocious in the rematch.

[mickey malone]

I suppose we have to accept that Foreman couldn't beat Ali in a boxing ring.. In that case we all have to accept that little old Henry Cooper did, by way of KO.. As suggested by other posters, Ali did have one of the best cheats of all time in his corner.. The rope tampering allegations is something I definately wouldn't put past Angelo Dundee, & we all know that the ropes played a very big part in Ali's game plan.. Something, no one else had either thought about, or be able to implement as well as Ali/Dundee..
Would Dundee have been able to do this with a cage?
Well not unless he created an obvious disturbance with an angle grinder, while sharding evidence all over the gaff.. So I suppose, there's your answer, George would'a KO'd Ali in a cage....

[TheGreatA]

I suppose we have to accept that Foreman couldn't beat Ali in a boxing ring.. In that case we all have to accept that little old Henry Cooper did, by way of KO.. As suggested by other posters, Ali did have one of the best cheats of all time in his corner.. The rope tampering allegations is something I definately wouldn't put past Angelo Dundee, & we all know that the ropes played a very big part in Ali's game plan.. Something, no one else had either thought about, or be able to implement as well as Ali/Dundee..
Would Dundee have been able to do this with a cage?
Well not unless he created an obvious disturbance with an angle grinder, while sharding evidence all over the gaff.. So I suppose, there's your answer, George would'a KO'd Ali in a cage....

I believe both have been proven myths by now. Ali didn't tell anyone that he would lay on the ropes against Foreman, he probably didn't even think of doing it himself until after the first round.

"Angelo Dundee works out of the Fifth Street Gym in Miami. He is the trainer the public knows best, mainly because he has had more fighters on television than anyone else, is often hired for instant analysis between rounds and is united visually with Ali in the public mind. When left alone, that is, when he is not working with Ali, Dundee runs a sharp corner, complemented by two seconds who are the best in the business: Luis Sarrea, the wordless Cuban, and Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, for whom boxing is one of many avocations.

The charge that Dundee tampered with the ropes in Zai�re (making them sag, to allow Ali to play them beautifully) is not true, but the trick is not beyond him. He is expert at prefight detail—not only ropes and canvas but publicity and propaganda.

Working in Ali's corner has been exasperating for Angelo, whose only balm is the money and a closeness to an authentic legend. Ali trains Ali, and he sometimes is a ruthless, heartless conditioner. The situation reduces Dundee almost to being a figurehead, a gregarious, eminently quotable press guide, a mediator of camp wrangles, a watcher of the camp's body politic. And few remember that it was Angelo who saved at least two major fights for Ali. But his role with Ali does not diminish him. He is quick of mind. He can follow a fighter's most convoluted thoughts. He knows how to get response. And he has no peer as a cut man—or as a survivor in a tattered way of life."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...29/1/index.htm


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5:30

"The British boxing newspaper Boxing News conducted an investigation into the 'split glove' incident in 2003. Using the original television and radio broadcasts to determine length of time between rounds 4 and 5 it was discovered that Cassius Clay only gained 5 seconds extra and not the mythical 3-5 minutes. The gloves were never changed. Other sources on the matter confirm this.[4] [5] After this fight a spare pair of gloves were always required at ringside. What is certain however, is that Dundee broke a phial containing an unknown substance and held it under Clay's nose in an effort to revive his man, which was illegal.[6] Clay was obviously impressed by the knockdown and on the 40th anniversary telephoned Cooper to reminisce. Clay who had changed his name to Muhammad Ali in 1964, later said, on British television, that Cooper "had hit [him] so hard that his ancestors in Africa felt it". In 1966 they met a second time at Arsenal Stadium in London to contest the world title. Cooper succumbed again to his weakness, a tendency to cut, and Ali went on to be "The Greatest"."

[TheGreatA]

** While I agree with the last paragraph above, let's keep in mind that Ali had no choice but to go to the ropes which is why Dundee loosened the ropes. They knew the ring was a slow one, and of course, in between the pummelings, Ali took every opening he had a breath for.

Foreman was exhausted by direct visage and every account of the bout from his efforts. He was unable to do proper sparring the month before the fight which is partially why he started off looking so clumsy. Foreman may have gotten a few sharp buzzes from Ali rights, but the beating Foreman handed out had Ali out on his feet as he as confessed numerous times. It was a world class beating that only a Foreman or Tyson could administer. Proof is Ali was never the same after this bout, barely at clubfighter level against Wepner in his next bout. He never showed any class over subsequent defenses save Coopman and Dunn and looked horrible when he wasn't in a major struggle.

Foreman also ruined the fine form Of Holy who looked crap ever since save the mysterious Tyson match. Doc Feelgood Ferdie never liked Foreman yet was willing to admit Foreman took a lot out of Ali, enough that they steered him away from the rematch.

Ali did land every punch in the book, including a key rabbit punch after George ended up with his neck stretched across the ropes, simultaneously popping his jugular and cerebellum at a most opportune time, setting up the highlight KO that arguably George beat the count on.

The scorecards have been changed in boxrec several times. I've seen them split before. One judge doesn't even give George a single round, bringing up the specious scoring of too many Ali bouts to mention.

Look, technically it's a legit win and Ali's best, but the conditions could never be duplicated and all indications are the team felt they really dodged a bullet with this fight.

Given additionally what we know of George later, he would've have been at his absolute best and most ferocious in the rematch.

I don't know about Ali being "out on his feet". After the fight he stated that the fight was "easy" and that he was never in any trouble.

I'd say that having a war against Frazier in Manila in which he did take a lot of punishment and was out on his feet several times had a lot more to do with him becoming a shot fighter than the Foreman fight, which to my eyes did look relatively easy considering.

Holyfield had some of his best performances after beating Foreman (in a rather one-sided but highly entertaining fight) so I don't know about that.

I'd say that the two right hands before the so-called rabbit punch actually did the most damage which allowed Ali to land the fight-ending combination:



Foreman looked like a diminished fighter after the Ali fight. I don't think the Foreman who fought Lyle or Young could do any better against that Ali, since he fell for the same tactics. Lyle and Young both countered his wild punches off the ropes and had success against him.

[paul750]

It just depends where the punches are landing [obviously]. Chris Byrd did the same sort of thing against Tua, but was nailed against Ike. Very clever boxers with big hearts can pull it off against big punching, but limited fighters. Make no mistake though, even Ali would have been hurt in the right circumstances.

What happens is that most punchers go in trying to take the boxer's head off, and in doing so waste energy, and also waste the opportunity the wear the boxer down. Patience is a very good virtue for a boxer to have. That's why I think Ike could have been a great fighter. In those types of fights the puncher is better off just throwing shots at about half power, and wearing the other guy down until the bomb comes.