The Most Overrated ''Old School Fighter''?

[GJC]

Would have fancied him against all of those but Liston. Liston would have given him problems, that said don't think he would have been intimadated by Liston so wouldn't have been beaten before he got in the ring as so many were. Obviously he wouldn't have lasted too much longer his style etc didn't lend itself to a long career.
What I was saying was very theoretical as in had Marciano not started his boxing career at a relatively old age and attained the title at say 25.
I would not say it is a huge leap of imagination to say he could have held it until 1960 and Liston, I don't think he would have ducked Liston as long as Patterson did. So then would have held the title 8 years instead of 3, like you say would have maybe picked up the odd loss but certainly would make for an interesting revaluation of Marciano.
Still could point at a weak era but 8 years is certainly a good reign.
Food for thought.

[Kinetic Linking]

who's better than jack dempsey at 180, great a? He admitted that he weighed in for the willard fight at 180 though it was announced at 187 which is hard not to believe because he looks 180.

Or to break it down, who hit harder at 180? Who was faster? More durable? You'd be hard pressed to find anyone who did anything better than JD at 180. Anything.

I think a lot of historians think dempsey was overrated, and I think they're wrong. He belongs at the very, very top of the all time pound for pound rankings. You can say he wasn't a top heavyweight because what's he going to do to george foreman, but pound for pound he was a monster at 180.

Who else is going to beat willard at 180? Ezzard Charles? I don't think so. Dempsey was a beast.

Have you seen any video of the other dempsey fights in 1919? They're hard to find, but they're incredible. Dempsey plowed through the heavyweight division before fighting willard, and some of his fights he stands there looking kind of dumb, the bell rings, and his opponent is instantly unconscious or injured. He was a monster.

I think 1919 dempsey was the best fighter pfp of all time. As such, he was able to clean out the heavyweight division at the time, despite its containing a number of much larger fighters. And he did it with incredible ease. His best excuse for moving away from the fight game was that they couldn't find legitimate opponents for him.

Rocky Marciano was another great small heavyweight. He occasionally weighed in at 185, and he hit harder than dempsey. This is apparent from video. But he wasn't better, and he wasn't better pfp.

[TheGreatA]

I don't think there was ever another heavyweight champion who did not fight his obvious number 1 challenger for as long as Dempsey. Harry Wills arguably had a better resume than Dempsey does.

Also Jess Willard was beaten by several 180 lbers. Gunboat Smith outboxed him as did Tom McMahon, both weighed under 180 lbs. This was a better version of Willard than the one Dempsey faced as well.

It's simply the manner in which Dempsey beat him that impresses me, other than that Willard is nothing more than a solid win on his record but not career-defining. Sharkey was his best win, in my opinion. He was being beaten by an impressive young challenger who later went onto become champ, and found a way to win.

[TheGreatA]

Would have fancied him against all of those but Liston. Liston would have given him problems, that said don't think he would have been intimadated by Liston so wouldn't have been beaten before he got in the ring as so many were. Obviously he wouldn't have lasted too much longer his style etc didn't lend itself to a long career.
What I was saying was very theoretical as in had Marciano not started his boxing career at a relatively old age and attained the title at say 25.
I would not say it is a huge leap of imagination to say he could have held it until 1960 and Liston, I don't think he would have ducked Liston as long as Patterson did. So then would have held the title 8 years instead of 3, like you say would have maybe picked up the odd loss but certainly would make for an interesting revaluation of Marciano.
Still could point at a weak era but 8 years is certainly a good reign.
Food for thought.

I agree that if it was Marciano at his best fighting them, he would come up the victor against everyone except perhaps Sonny Liston.

He was getting up there in age though and when you fight quality competition often, you'll lose eventually. I don't think he could have lasted as a champion until 1960.

I do get what you're saying though, had he been younger. He would probably be a consensus top 3 or top 5 heavyweight in that case. He is often ranked top 5 even now but recently he has been underrated a lot.

[StarshipTrooper]

That's exactly how you can become overrated.

It really depends on how high or low someone rates him for him to be called overrated or underrated.

Maybe it is more of the "O," who he fought, when he fought them, and that they call him a "HW" and compare him with other HWs in history that have fought decent-good competition over 200 pounds and 6'0 in height that have people in question about him. That is what starts to make the debate longer and interesting.
So NO, the "Age" thing isn't all we have. Age, height and weight for how big they were as "HW," at what point they were in their careers and so on.

At the end of the day, every fighter can be overrated and underrated but what matters is the reasons you give for him and comparing him to other fighters in history for giving him the position you have bestowed upon him. That's for everybody...every fighter.

But it would be interesting to hear where you rate him and why and compare him to some other HWs.

Let's take for instance the HWs that came before him...Can Rocky beat these Champions (and we'll stick with Champions only since the list gets longer with "other" fighters that have been left out of the Championship title picture because of politics)

Jim Jeffries

Jack Johnson

Jess Willard

Jack Dempsey

Gene Tunney

Max Schmeling

Jack Sharkey

Primo Carnera

Max Baer

Jimmy Braddock

Joe Louis

And how about a PRIME Ezzard Charles, Jersey Joe Walcott and Archie Moore. I often wonder this myself.
Of course when we list those names, we also have to include where they were in their Prime. For example: Ezzard's best is known to be as a LH...some would want to include that he started below LH and displayed skills as a MW. LH was more his spot I would say. Although I will leave it to the historians for that one.
Archie: Started off lighter than a LH, but was known as a LH when many place him in history. Walcott: Where is he rated? Bigger as far as natural weight than the other two but what makes him an "ATG" and was he?
He did lose to a way past prime Louis for example before Rocky even got to him years later and had many losses before that.

In addition, if we continued with the HW list....

Floyd Patterson

Ingemar Johansson

Sonny Liston

Clay/Ali

Joe Frazier

George Foreman

etc. etc. etc.

Many things to think about.



Now for the others that have been left off the list that were not considered "The Champion" and only held the "Black" HW Champion title...that's another case...and something I don't know because I don't have footage....so we leave them off the list.
Even Jeffries is hard to tell because of lack of footage.



Nice article on Rocky and the "?"

Not saying everything can be agreed upon but there are some points.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/rocky.html




Maybe by some but that is your emotions talking as well as theirs.

You see, many newbies will just look at the "O" and will assume he is the greatest and when they do that, they list him above other "Greats" which can be wrong. And in doing so, that may piss off some people. But lists and rankings in general tend to piss people off.

It's all about making your case valid and it has to be more than the "O."

Even in those victories, and we understand where those opponents were in their career and their other statistics like height and weight...how well did he do. Stuff like that.
If you can give a good case, well, then it boosts up your point for how high you can rank him.



Here are some good points for Rocky:

He always came in his best shape. I can't say that for many others. Even as Champion, when we see other Champions start to have inflated egos and relax in life so their training goes downhill, Rocky did not. He was a dedicated fighter. Now he didn't have a long title reign but for that brief period he stayed at his best and he knew when to get out.

Rocky was also in his prime as Champion and like I said above, he knew when to get out. I can't say the same for some others, like Muhammad Ali who kept going way past prime. Now it is true Ali wasn't the same fighter when he came back from suspension, and he will get a ton of credit for what he did despite his declined ability, but he did stay in boxing to long to the point that it was just sad.

That said, we should also judge a person mostly at his best...and then take into consideration everything else. As far as a "fantasy" matchup...it will always be at their best. Legacy however will more than likely be everything.

I'm going to write down some of my thoughts on these match-ups.

Jim Jeffries

Jeffries was bigger and stronger, known for his athleticism. He was used to fighting bouts that went 20 rounds or more.

I feel he wasn't as powerful as he is made out to be however. Marciano, despite being around 30 lbs lighter was the bigger puncher of the two in my view.

Out of the film I've seen of Jeffries, his sparring sessions have actually been the most impressive. He employed a similar crouching defense as Marciano did.

Against Tom Sharkey he seemed to land numerous counter uppercuts, a punch Marciano was somewhat open for. The much lighter Sharkey took them well though and gave two tough fights to Jeffries.

It's hard to call. I have not seen a whole lot of Jeffries but I'd give him a fair chance of actually wearing down Marciano in a fight to the finish because of his size advantage. Both were extremely durable.

This also brings me to ask this question, what rules should be used in these match-ups? 10 rounds, 15 rounds, 20 rounds, 45 rounds, no rounds limit... It could affect the outcomes.

Jack Johnson

Jack Johnson was brilliant in the clinches and he was at his best when man-handling smaller, shorter opponents. He used a punishing jab and a sneaky uppercut from the clinch to dominate his opposition.

I don't know how he would deal with Marciano's pressure. Most of the men who fought him tried to get him with one punch which Johnson could easily avoid. Marciano too was a one punch knockout artist, known for his wild right hands, until his trainer convinced him to concentrate on a much more consistent attack as seen in his fights against Charles, ****ell and Moore.

He no longer knocked out people like he did Walcott, Louis and Layne, but he may have been better off for it.

Jess Willard

Willard was a tough, strong man who was bigger than most of the heavyweights in his time. Unlike most big men, he had trendemous stamina. He used a powerful left jab and an uppercut which he once tragically killed a man with, giving him a feared reputation.

Willard did not take boxing very seriously however, starting his career while already in his 30's and stayed inactive for years while reigning as the champion.

Marciano doesn't destroy Willard in the same way that Dempsey did, especially the younger, more motivated Willard who fought an aging Jack Johnson and took his title. I feel he would win a decision, depending on how many rounds the fight would be scheduled for, or perhaps a TKO if he finds Willard with enough frequency. Willard was not all that easy to hit but he was rather slow.

Jack Dempsey

Marciano could be caught early. Dempsey could definitely catch him early.

Dempsey actually showed good stamina in the late rounds against Bill Brennan. His footspeed in that fight is among the best I've seen in the heavyweight division.

He was mainly known as an early round KO artist though. If the fight goes to the later rounds, I'd have to favour Marciano with his incredible stamina.

So many things have already been said about this particular match-up that I really have little to add.

Gene Tunney

Tunney was a brilliant boxer and had underrated toughness. Dempsey was on the slide but by no means a shot fighter when Tunney twice beat him. Harry Greb was perhaps lighter but was known for his ability to throw a ton of punches and get away with it due to his quickness. Tunney dealt with him in their last two bouts after having three tough fights with him.

I can see Tunney doing to Marciano what Walcott did for 13 rounds. He was adept at jabbing, moving, throwing combinations and clinching his opponents which is what bothered Marciano in his fights against Charles, LaStarza and Walcott.

I can also see Marciano's late round power bailing him out because Tunney, while durable and elusive, was by no means knockout proof or unhittable. Carpentier, Gibbons and Dempsey landed on him occasionally.

I might write some thoughts on the other champs later but this will be it for now.

Great posts Gentlemen! This is why I like the Boxing History forum

Poet

[billionaire]

lmao someone actually said floyd patterson would beat rocky.....he had a worse chin than joe louis....and primo carnera, a huge clown.....you got no credibility!

[Benny Leonard]

lmao someone actually said floyd patterson would beat rocky.....he had a worse chin than joe louis....and primo carnera, a huge clown.....you got no credibility!

Who knows.

I was surprised to hear Marciano talk in the Charles fight footage about Ezzard's chin:

Time: 3:13

And for Joe's "weak" chin, he was only knocked out twice despite fighting some solid punchers/fighters.

.................................................. ...........................

According to Duva, Marciano's pride in being champion kept him on top.

"He used to tell me, 'Nothing makes me feel better than to walk into a restaurant and hear someone say Hi champ.'

Retiring undefeated became Marciano's claim to fame, but when Ingemar Johansson defeated Floyd Patterson for the championship in 1959, Marciano considered a comeback.

"He was offered $1.2 million to fight Johansson, which is like $20 million now," said Duva, who'd been enlisted to work Marciano's corner. "Rocky would've knocked him out, too. He never wanted to fight Patterson because Patterson was quick. But Johansson stood right in front of you, which would've been perfect for Rocky."

When Patterson signed for a rematch with Johansson, Marciano lost interest





There was also a S.I. article about Patterson that said D'Amato actually wanted that fight and pressed for it because he felt Patterson could beat Marciano. Have to find the article later to make sure that was it.
Boxing was really corrupt back then...but not like it still isn't.

[billionaire]

of course speed matters for a 37 year old against a 20 year old.....ray leonard prime would kill terry norris but what happened when they fought each other....

[Benny Leonard]

of course speed matters for a 37 year old against a 20 year old.....ray leonard prime would kill terry norris but what happened when they fought each other....

Patterson won the title a year after Maricano retired by knocking out Archie Moore in quick fashion...so Patterson was on the scene at that point just a year later.

Rocky's view of Patterson:

[StarshipTrooper]

Remember this?

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=195982

It's the same guy. A certified troll.

Ah yes! Good old Rafael Benitez who claimed he was a boxing trainer and then later JulioCesa(r)Chavez. What a hypocrite seein as how under Rafael Benitez he was squawking about what a worthles bum-beater Marciano was:

Marciano was overrated. If he fought Liston isntead of being a chicken he would have bean beaten to a pulp. He struggled against slow old men like Walcott and a washed up Charles. I reckon most top heavies from each era would have wiped the floor with him. Do u really think he could stand in there with Big Klitchko, Lewis, Holyfied or even Samuel Peter?LOL. Way too easy to hit. He was lucky that Italians loved boxing at the time, it was number one in sports and he had no competition.

Only idiots who have no fight dvd's (i have 1000+ 500vhs) and haven't seen much would rate 'the rock'. The best of his era were old men, and even then he was getting outboxed by the painfully slow Jersey Joe Walcott (equivalent to a journeyman like glen johnson)just by looking at footage one can see he wouldn't stand a chance aginst a Prime Roy Jones, the old Hopkins or even our Clinton Woods! Never mind any genuine heavyweight. He didn't lose coz he didn't fight anybody. Look at all the best, they lost coz they fought the best. He knew he had to retire early or get ko'd by the up and coming fighters! Smart guy but still rubbish.

I've seen every major boxing match that took place in the past 100 years and every Marciano title fight. Walcott was an old slow man and even then he had to hit the man when he was down because he was being outboxed. Marciano is overrated because he was the white hope in a segragated America where they believed they were evolutionarily superior. Marciano never beat anybody decent in their prime and was lucky he was in a dead era. The truth is he was overrated and would lose to many of todays light heavyweights including Calzaghe Hopkins and maybe even Tarver. People who know boxing know he is not a top ten heavyweight. Don't get upset, it is the truth.

LOL some Marciano advocates believe Joe Louis was not totally over the hill when Marciano fought him!!! He was pulled out of retirment and looked more washed up than the shores of Blackpool. Just because Rocky was crap and made a meal out of him and the other old men he fought doesn't mean they were not washed up. Also he did not fight everyone around at his time and retired early to avoid the likes of Sonny liston, Cleveland Williams etc. Even so, it may not be his fault but still exposed his weaknesses. He struggled with Walcott who was average, slow and ever so OLD. It took a dirty shot and there was never to be a rematch in segregated america that needed their hero so bad. He was so easy to hit it was a joke. Completely outboxed for many rouns. Marciano would lose to David Haye in about 2 rounds.

I think he is not even in the top 20 in the heavyweight division of all time. It pisses me off when people think he was in the top 5 or even the best! ROFL. Why does he always pop up on p4p lists? He was absolutely ****!

I see you did your hours long homework on me. That's sweet.

THIS is coming from the guy who has several TheGreatA accounts, several Manmachine accounts as well as other alts such as Southpaw16. And if you want to deny this, then how are they so similar like you? After all mate, you're just mad that there are more people that agree with me such as the lad you posted here behind his back.

Stick to the thunderdome with that crap.

This thread is to expose Louis' perversities.

If by that you mean you have around 5 alts, then yes you are right mate.

Maybe you should step up your stalking game, so that I won't notice it's your alt that's following me around every time. For Gods sake is it that hard not to talk like a robot?

Well well, doesn't that make him just look "special"? Can we say "busted"? Nice job GreatA!

Poet