jack dempsey is the most overrated.....

[res]

This is just my opinion, but I've felt for some time that that was a poor stoppage that Walcott mishandled. The count wouldn't have been nearly that long had Ali gone to a nuetral corner. Can't blame Liston for that. That said...I think Sonny laid down in this fight. He legitimatley got caught, but looking at the tape I think he could have gotten up but knew he couldn't win.

and what the *blank* was going on after he got up?

Ali just leaps on Liston and starts pounding with no fear, and Liston just covers up?!

That fight has always seemed to me like the whole thing was planned, never been able to understand it.

[Jim Jeffries]

Off topic, but that raises questions about the Ali-Liston rematch though.

Every time I watch that I see Liston starting to get up, Ali rushing at him, and Liston laying back down. If Ali was forced to go to a neutral corner, I believe Liston would've gotten up, though how much good it would've done him, I'm not sure.

And how is Dempsey overrated when he has completely disappeared from the top 10 ATG HW lists?

[Dave Rado]

And how is Dempsey overrated when he has completely disappeared from the top 10 ATG HW lists?

Bert Sugar's top 10 ATGs published 2006:

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Willie Pep
4 Joe Louis
5 Harry Greb
6 Benny Leonard
7 Muhammad Ali
8 Roberto Duran
9 Jack Dempsey
10 Jack Johnson

ESPN's top 10 ATGs published 2007:

1. Sugar Ray Robinson
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Henry Armstrong
4. Joe Louis
5. Willie Pep
6. Roberto Duran
7. Benny Leonard
8. Jack Johnson
9. Jack Dempsey
10. Sam Langford

[TheGreatA]

Liston always said that he stayed down because he legitimately thought Ali was crazy and tried to hit him while he was getting up.

I've always kind of believed his side of the story because Ali went to great lengths to convince Liston that he was out of his mind.

[LondonRingRules]

Bert Sugar's top 10 ATGs published 2006:

1 Sugar Ray Robinson
2 Henry Armstrong
3 Willie Pep
4 Joe Louis
5 Harry Greb
6 Benny Leonard
7 Muhammad Ali
8 Roberto Duran
9 Jack Dempsey
10 Jack Johnson

** Ol' Bert, his lists change almost as much as the poor dears here who are always going on about Dempsey or fill in the blank being overrated without providing a current rating.

10 yrs ago, I believe Bert had Jack as his number one pick. At any rate, Dempsey, Langford, Louis, Ali, Tunney, and sometimes Rocky the only heavies who generally make all time p4p lists which means they are generally accorded a very great status as heavy.

Insecure dears needing some order in their disarranged lives make lineal lists as if greatness was spare change that could be counted up and get quite upset when their count is disputed.........

[TheGreatA]

"Clay caught me cold and the count was messed up, and that's all they was to it," he said. "Clay knocked me down with a good punch. Anybody can get caught cold in the first round, before you even work up a sweat. And when I was down, Clay stood right over me. No, I never blacked out, not for a second. But I wasn't gonna get up, either, not with him standin' over me. See, you can't get up without puttin' one hand on the floor, and so I couldn't protect myself, and he can hit me on the way up.

"So there was Walcott [Referee Jersey Joe Walcott] and Clay wrasslin' over me and Walcott finally got him to a corner or somethin', and then I got up and Clay come back and we started back to fightin' again.

"And Nat Fletcher [ Nat Fleischer, editor of The Ring Magazine] began wavin' his arms at ringside and Walcott stopped the fight. Nowadays Nat Fletcher says he was just callin' Walcott over to tell him that the timekeeper wanted to see him or somethin', but other people says it was Nat Fletcher stopped the fight.

"I was never counted out. I coulda got up even right after I was hit. And I still felt pretty good when I did get up. I mean I could still go on. What Walcott shoulda done, he shoulda sent Cassius to a neutral corner. When the referees call you out in the center of the ring before a fight, they tells you that: go to a neutral corner. And that's when they count you out, not with no fighter standin' right over you.

"They shouldn't have fighters refereein' no fights no way," Sonny added, now back in his horizontal position. "They should have people that don't get excited."

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...66/6/index.htm

[StarshipTrooper]

http://vault.sportsillustrated.cnn.c...66/6/index.htm

Manchine you did it again: GREAT find!

Poet

[GJC]

Liston always said that he stayed down because he legitimately thought Ali was crazy and tried to hit him while he was getting up.

I've always kind of believed his side of the story because Ali went to great lengths to convince Liston that he was out of his mind.

I always remember Terry Downes (MW) quote when co-comentating on UK radio re the phantom punch.
"**** me Eamon I hit me old lady harder then that"

[Southpaw16BF]

Would of always liked to of seen Dempsey fight Harry Willis and most of all Harry Greb, who he avoided like the plague.

At one time Dempsey's Mindset was he wanted to retire as the undefeated Champion, he never wanted to lose his Title in the ring, this being the reason he didn't want to fight the best out there.

He wanted to take fights he knew he could win, Demspey thought if he retired champion, this would make alot of money when he retires as he will be a icon, but if he lost the Title in the ring, and retired without being champion, he thought he wouldn't make as much money in later age or be as recongized...

Do Dempsey did fight some very good fighters, and it never did work out retiring as Champion.

[LondonRingRules]

Would of always liked to of seen Dempsey fight Harry Willis and most of all Harry Greb, who he avoided like the plague.

** You obviously know very little of Dempsey.

Everyone wished the Wills fight came off. Wills got paid for it. Dempsey didn't. Not Jack's fault.

Greb? If I hear one more crack about this little fella being any more than a sparring partner for about 6 rounds, I think I might conjure up his ghost to crack on.

Dempsey did not control his destiny until stepping into the ring. Doc Kearns and Tex Rickard assigned his fights, and then Jack did his job.

Now, Rickard offered Wills a shot at Tunney in an elimination to face Dempsey. Both turned it down, but supposedly Tunney did an about face and was willing. Who knows, but this is Tunney's account, not Wills.

Regardless, Tunney fought Gibbons instead and earned his shot. Wills had another shot at Tunney as champ, but lost to Sharkey who was then KOed by Jack for the Tunney rematch.

Guess they were all "ducking" Greb.