Leonard vs Pryor - early 80's , who wins??

[wpink1]

** Actually Leonard only had one "war" with Duran which he lost much worse than the biased scoring.

True, he became a tougher, better fighter for it which prepped him for what he needed to beat Hearns, but Pryor was in the mold of Duran. Cast iron chin, angles out the kazoo, matching quickness and unstoppable work rate.

Pryor could box classically very well when he wanted as he showed late in the Arguello fight, an additional wrinkle. I favor Pryor as there was some history there in the amateurs and it favored Pryor, a bad, bad, superduper bad assed little assassin in the ring who was invincible in his day, unlike Leonard.

Just to be clear though, not accusing Leonard of ducking Pryor when he had bigger fish to fry, and not downgrading his own chance to win. Just feel Pryor has matching talent and all the intangibles which favor him.

London what history...that favored aaron in the amateurs. I know many of theose that sparred with Ray when ray was in DC and at the kronk. Pryor never had an advantage on Ray in anything. He was always a weight class behind. As for styles, pryor had poor balance, wide open and was open to counters all night long.

Pyror had all types of issue with arguello in the first fight, and contrary to your false post, the first leoanrd duran fght was very close. I had Ray winning. Now that takes into account duran gave the last round away, but after the first 4 rounds leonard and duran where pretty much even with leoanrd using boxing skills in rounds 5-7 to get back into the fight. I suggest you review the fight. for all those that follow this thread, you will hear london rules go on and on, i suggest you go to youtube an look for yourself, It was a very very close fight. I can live with Duran winning it, as it was his night, but dont try to get on here an make it like duran whipped leonard ass cuz it just did not happen. You do leave out that leoanrd embarrased durad and made him quit in the rematch.


Name one top jr welter or welter that was prime in weight and age that Pryor ever beat?

[LondonRingRules]

Name one top jr welter or welter that was prime in weight and age that Pryor ever beat?

** Well, well, looks like yesterday was honorary juicy sweety pinky thingy day.

Couldn't help notice you plastered all over that racist Duran thread in NS with the kiddies. What a sorry position you represent.

Pryor had his very first jr welt bout late in 1980 against a HOF great champ who compiled a better title record than your poster boy. Cervantes a bit long in the tooth, but much like the beat down Manny did on Oscar, nobody, NOBODY ever got to Cervantes like that in his 18-3 title history. That was in the sweet middle of Pryor's 26 KO streak BTW, a fantastic run at the top.

Benitez already moved up to jr mid, Duran/Hearns to shortly follow, that wiped out the big money high profile fights he craved, leaving only Goldy Ray.

Lest their be any doubts about HOFer Cervantes, he was born a tough Columbian sans the silver Sugar spoon. He came up hard in one of the world's fetid backwaters. Unlike Goldy Ray who turned pro with a multimillion dollar guarantee and mighty US network promotions, Cervantes has to travel to other's backwater hometowns for his opportunities, 18-3 title record fought mainly in other's backyard sums Cervantes up very nicely.

This thread is about the proposed matchup that never came off. I don't care if you want to promote Goldy Ray as the winner, to each his own.

Pryor was as live a dog in any fight who has ever existed, and prime to prime he never took the kind of beating Ray took against Duran and Hearns, indeed, Pryor one of the all time great beaters, not beatees. It's ridiculous to claim that Pryor has no chance since Duran was near the end of his best in a long career and Hearns a young still growing gangly fighter moving many divisions past Goldy Ray.

Shoot, well known now that Benitez barely trained a week for their fight and holds Goldy Ray close based entirely on feints and reflexes.

Leonard won his gold medal as a jr welt, so Pryor is no farther off than Duran was as far as natural weight classes go. Pryor was less than a year apart in age, so Goldy Ray was his natural rival given the network promotions and lack of other jr welt/welt stars to fight. Pryor was even willing to move down for Mancini's lightweight belt until that fell apart when he lost the belt.

At any rate, Pryor handled his jr welt title seamlessly until his retirement, unlike your boy Goldy Ray who seemed to be angling more for the Drama Queen award his first go round the big time.

Like I stated previously, it was Goldy Ray's right not to accept the challenge. OK by me as he had bigger fish to fry. Nor would I ever dismiss the credible chance he has to win the bout. However, the risk/reward factor got to be such that given the choices Goldy Ray had between Pryor, Duran rubber match, Hearns rematch, and Hagler match, he opted for the Mighty Bruce Finch Flight of Fancy and beat a quick path to first of many, many, perhaps even more in the future, who knows how many retirements.......

[wpink1]

London you want to know why you where bounced off of certain websites, and on may peoples ignore list, it is becasue of ****** post like this. You show you know nothing about boxing. It actually is embarrsassing to debate with you, because my father always told who is the bigger dummy, the dummy or he who argues with a dummy...

So let me be the bigger dummy.

Your evaluation hyping up Cervantes is for what reason. Who on here slammed Cervantes. I pointed out that Cervantes was old, and had over 100 fights by the time Pryor faced him. The question is Name 1 top jr. Welterweight in Pryor career who was peak in age, and weight that Pryor beat. NAME 1

I never said it was Pryor's fault, in fact if you read before opening your mouth, I said Pryor unfortunately came along a year to late, and 7 pounds to lite.

Now you sound ****** and show your bias, when you the most uncredible source on here, say Ray took a beating in the Duran and hearns fight..

Lets see...Duran fight never went down, came back after the 4th round to win more rounds than Duran did on EACH OF THE JUDGES scorecards on this so called beating, resulted in a win by duran that had one round ( for example if the judges had given leoanrd the 1st round, a round in which duran landed 0 punches to the head*** go research the first round for yourself http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_sUM90P20Y. =) been scored differently then Ray wins... Hmmm that sounds like a great beat down. Get your facts straing idiot!

Hearns beating.. lets see rounds 6 and 7 Leoanrd damaged hearns ribs, almost had hearns ko'd,,,hearns starts running for the next 3 rounds,avoiding any exchanges from Ray. Round 13 leoanrd drops hearns twice, one not scored a knockdown for whatever reason, 14th Hearns gets stopped, had to be carried out the ring..But your dumbass, say's leoanrd got beaten up..

I think with your summary of those two fights, you just exposed two things, your obvious bias against ray, and how ignorant you are of boxing.

Now lets examine this ****** post even further...
who prime did Pryor ever beat that was a solid jr welter. Remember Arguello had moved up, this being his fourth jump. So no Arguello was not a solid jr welter having only one tune up vs kevin Rooney.

On one hand you say Duran was at the end of his best in his career (false, and I will address that ****** statment in a second) but isnt the only credible win on Pryor's resume vs a fighter that was much more past it than Duran was, as far as their careers go...hmmmmmm

Now for Duran. Duran was only 28.I repeat 28 years old when he faced Leoanrd, and 29 when he quit. Sounds very old to me. Duran went on to have wins and titles at jr middle and middle. No these where wins vs hagler, hearns or close to it but it does dispell this constant myth that somehow duran was peak in june of 80, but past his peak in Nov of 80...wow

You then do your next try to tear down Ray's accomplishments tactic. Attack hearns. You say hearns was young still growing gangly fighters....Hmmmm lets see this young (in your logic not qualified fighter to challenge Ray at that time and some how Ray was picking on hearns..) fighter was 32-0, 30 ko's just stopped a man with a chin know for being granite...Cuevas. This man was the WBA undefeated champion...Hmmm name on fighter on Pryor resume that he stepped in the ring with that met these qualifications as a professional. Hmmmm I will help you. You can't!!

Shoot, well known now that Benitez barely trained a week for their fight and holds Goldy Ray close based entirely on feints and reflexes.

Another attempt to attack Ray's accomplishments with false accusations.... It is Generally accepted that Benetiz trained only a week before most fights, however he had a solid training camp for leoanrd, and was in the best shape of his life...fast forward to the 3:43 point it points out that Benetiz was in the best shape of his life, and had never trained harder for a fight. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz6i6...eature=related.

Also in Sugar Ray's autobiography called a fistful of sugar, Benetiz commented in the book, that he thought that he may have trained to hard for the fight, as he trained for 6 weeks for this fight. He mentioned that this fight came between he and Sugar's sister whom he had a relationship with, and that he wanted a rematch with Ray to avenge this fight. He had hoped to catch Ray at jr middle, but Ray had retired.

London you know nothing about boxing...man. You make up **** as you go, and i have repeatedly had to show you and Boxing scene members just why you where kicked off of Cyberboxingzone... and now your on here with ****** lies. Please..

How close was this fight? judge luirie had Ray up 137-130, harry gibb 136-134, randy solis 137-133. Hmmm 15th round was not scored due to the stoppage but since there was a knock down...the scores would have been 147 138, 146-142, 147-141. Very close huh.....What a dumb factless, as usual Londoon rules statment. Close my ass! Hmmm maybe you should have researched a bit before posting. Ray had dropped Benetiz twice, and when it was stopped Benetiz offered no complaints even seemed relieved. Since we are on Benetiz, how many fighter did Pryor beat that where prime like Benetiz, undefeated and a 2 division champ all at the same time..NONE!!


Goldy Ray, you so affectionatly call him...(which shows your jealousy of him) did win a gold, so thanks for acnowledging this... however this little rant..

At any rate, Pryor handled his jr welt title seamlessly until his retirement, unlike your boy Goldy Ray who seemed to be angling more for the Drama Queen award his first go round the big time.

Drama queen...Hmmm Ray fought in a two year period probably the best level of competiton and beat them (except for the one loss to duran)that you can imagin. Benetiz, duran, hearns, kalule...But according to you, he was a drama queen, etc..etc..

Pryor fought at 135 when ray was Jr welter. At the time he and ray where good good friends. Not sure what your angle was. They were not rivals until Pryor needed to make money,and Ray was the name to make it off of. Pryor to this day thanks ray for the times they spent together early one...I have several dvd fights of Ray, when during his post fight interviews with cossell, Pryor is holding little ray.

Pryor was not a rival..he was not even being considered as a challenger for Ray, until Ray had retired and the speculation was circulating about him coming out of retirment. Every magazine, every interview every thing was Ray vs Duran, then Ray vs hearns, then in 5 months, he was having surgery for a detached retina that he (unlike popular myth) had first damages vs Marcus geraldo and reinjured weeks leading up to the hearns fight, by catching a elbow to the eye. Hearns great jab reaggrivated it, but did not cause it.

Now for the grand finally.... your last paraghaph.
Your right about a risk reward factor. For ray to fight a fighter who had not beaten a top peak fighter yet, who had not fought at welterweight, like duran did (he had 8 fights at welter before they fought), who was a relative nobody to the average fight fan, until NOV 12, 1982, when he beat Arguello the first time. I think if you research the Bruce finch fight you will find out 3 rather startling points.

1. It was a mandatory defense.
2. It was before Pryor earned a right to move up and fight for a championshp in a division he never even campaigned in. That right was earned on 11/12/82, the Bruce Finch fight occured 2/15/82. Generally fighters fight in a division and show thier worth at that weight, unless they are marketable enough and the demand is there enough and they have beaten some great fighters at the division below or dominated for a long time. Hmmm Pryor at the time had accomplished 0 of the 4 stated general paths to being able to leap frog all the mandatory challengers in a higher division.
3. Leoanrd had fought in 4 legendayr fights in less than 2 1/2 years. He was still fighint the number one WBC contender, he just unified the belt, i guess he didnt deserve the right to fight fighters along the caliber that Pryor at the time made a living on. So we knock ray for fighting a Bruce Finch, Pryor is not addressed for fighting akio kemeda or Miguel montilla...These where the two fighters Pryor faced prior to Arguello.

I distinctily remember that leonard did have rematches with Hearns, and Duran. Unfortunately for you who may have not been concerned about his health and the fact that in 82 a detached retina meant blindness if reinjured..Naw you simply wanted ray to fight, and become like Greb, Sugar Ray Seales, or hmmm Pyror himself all who are blind in at least one eye. Naw Leoanrd should have called you up and not headed his physicians, the best eys docs in the world who flew in to baltimore to operate on his eye as John Hopkins and told him intially that his eye was back 100 percent, but reinjurey meant permanent blindness. Yes technology made is so later this concern is negated, but at the time Ray had ot make a decision for him and his family. Also, Didnt Ray come back after 5 years and no tune up take on hagler. Hmmm I guess that must be my mind playing tricks on me. I must be hallucinating that he beat hagler at middleweight making it 4 top all time legends that he beat...vs how many for pryor..One.

I am not saying pryor didnt want to fight duran, hearns, Leonard. Yes he did, however it made no sense for Ray to fight pyror before he became worth the risk reward, which he became worth that, when he beat Arguello. Unfortunatley, it was after Ray had retired, and he developed a cocain habit that destroyed any chance of this happening in the future.

[LondonRingRules]

London you know nothing about boxing...man.

** Nothing would be a quantum leap compared to what you know my dearest sweety juicy pinky thingy.

My dear, you don't know me from Jack, but I know you act like Jill and bragged about being an in house shill for some pharmco. You know, the industry that has 3 lobbyists for every congressman in Washington that writes bills for Congress to keep your supersized trousers well larded.

You can't even stay on topic, which is the proposed match of Pryor against Ray. I gave legit reasons by Pryor wins this bout, summed up quite nicely in the first Duran/Leonard fight where Ray shows he can't deal with a fast, skilled, active waterbug type pressure fighter. Pryor more prime than Duran without the mileage of 70 fights weighing on him just hands out a bigger beatdown on Ray, probably KO.

You can blabber about never beating a prime welter, blah, blah, blabber, blabber, but facts are that the only reason Pryor fought as a jr welt was because he couldn't get a title shot at lightweight or welter so he made short work of what came his way. A bad, bad, superbad, greatly feared little motor scooter unlike your Goldy Ray who was coronated like some network drama queen for all you sorority gals to emulate.

You disagree with anything that might challenge the primacy of your boyfriend. Fine, always given Ray a decent chance in this dog fight since I have a balanced view of fighters, so end of story.

Now, get lost and go find a psychotherapist to sell a box of ritalin or whatever snake oil you peddle for children or old folks and take your insipid utube clip of Uncle Howie dribbling on about nonsense with you. Already seen the fight several times and it changes nothing.

[wpink1]

Pryor beats not one single great prime fighter and now he is apparantlly a world killer. Hmmm Ok if you say so. We have seen many of those apparently great fighters get their ass handed to them when they are truly tested.

I have nothing against Pryor, in fact I like him, but generally you are judged by what you DO INSIDE THE RING vs THE BEST OUT THERE.. Not that this is Pryor's fault, because he did want to fight everyone. However, he beat no one that was a solid 140 pounder that was not either very old and past their peak, or who had to move up 4 divisions to fight him. So to take it another level and say he moves up and beats Sugar Ray, who Pryror himself, said Ray "used to lump him up in sparring sessions" and I have sparring mates, on by the name of Jimmi Matz, who witnessed several of these sparring sessions in Md, say that Pryor used to get his ass handed to him when he and Ray fought. I tend to accept their word since it matches perfectly with what Pryor said in leoanrd book, "a fistful of Sugar" and it a interview where he admitted Ray used to beat him up pretty badly, because of his bad balance, was on-line Labled, "hbo- where they are now". Last time i looked for it, the link was not active anymore.

I will not argue that when leonard stood flat footed and allowed duran to march right in on him, that he had some issues, that in fact he solved after the 4th round of the fact, to be honest. At least in the judges eyes, who all 3 awarded more rounds for Ray after round 4 than they did for Duran. Howeveer he lost, so we will take it that Ray had issues with Duran when he was flat footed. What makes you think a fighter like Ray who has shown the ability to fight many different styles in order to win and had sparred with Pyror, and had the experience of Duran I, and then in the 2nd Duran fight he made the smaller man fight his fight. What makes you think that he would not box pryor. Leoanrd was hurting pryor in sparring due to his bad balance, imagine how it would be when the punches where live.

In fact, my friend. Pryor got dazed several times by Arguello, who did nto have the size, reach, power, speed of leonard. Imagine that being leoanrd in their first fight, Pryor gets stopped. What many forget is the first fight was anyone fight going into the 14th round, when mysteriously a bottle appeared that had according to pryor own manager a special mix in it. In other fights your hero pryor an dhis manager where caught removing stuffing out their gloves.

We will never know who would win, but odds are Pryor would get destroyed by Leoanrd, who beat much bigger and badder fish, and oh yeh he also did come back and outbox the smaller fast skilled better defensive fighter in Duran. So bad Duran quit.

[Kid McCoy]

London you want to know why you where bounced off of certain websites, and on may peoples ignore list, it is becasue of ****** post like this. You show you know nothing about boxing.

Would that be the same reason so many on CBZ put you on ignore? Your duel obsessions with Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran, your lack of boxing knowledge beyond Boxrec, and ludicrous assertions like Duran's only claim to fame is beating Leonard.

People in glass houses, etc.

[wpink1]

Would that be the same reason so many on CBZ put you on ignore? Your duel obsessions with Ray Leonard and Roberto Duran, your lack of boxing knowledge beyond Boxrec, and ludicrous assertions like Duran's only claim to fame is beating Leonard.

People in glass houses, etc.

Funny you bring that up. the only ones that i have issues with on CBZ is hawkins and his girlfriends, because I dont bow down to the Duran nuthuggerism.....

Never have Nevere will. As far as lack of knowledge, I get my knowledge from more than Hawkins, and simply saying Duran is the best because he fought 70 bumes..... and only one great win (leonard) as evidenced by my most recent post on another thread on here. It was either you or jab, that asked me to back up my claim that duran did not beat a single other person on Bert sugars top 100, the rings top 80, and espn's top 50. I have shown the facts. Now what. This is not Box rec either, it is using the same historians that you hand on their joc and say "look see he says duran is top ..etc" So now I use these same historians, resources to show just how Duran's resume compares to leoanrd an Jones. I wonder what excuse you will come up with now. Hmmm disregard these sources maybe. Great I hope you say that, because then based on what now will you have to show Duran who lost almost every fight (before the age of 34) he had vs the elite fighters he faced, unless of course you consider bums like Marcel, Kyobashi, and a good but not great fighter in Buchanon. Hey don't take my word, just use your resourced and historians that you all use repeatedlly to support Duran being so great...

It is great to expose people who dont know jack **** about boxng. Did you like my point vs london when he ws on her saying tht leonard benetiz was close, and unlike him I use facts to support my case. Pretty much blew him out the water when I showed him the scorecard that showe exactly opposite of another false statment (like his continued rant the Tyson had a tougher resume than Ali).

Kid i will admit you have some very good points about Mayeather vs Duran.. I agree there. Mayweather can not be ranked ahead of Duran, not yet. But Jones is clearly to be ranked ahead of Duran. It is not even close unless you are going to become crazy and consider what he did vs Tarver and Johnson and later when it clearly was a shot Roy, a roy that was 36 years old....I have always been consistent when I say fighters should be for the most part measured on what they did up until age 34 or so.

[Kid McCoy]

I disagree totally with your methodology, Pink. There's more to a fighter than just his opposition. Enter Shergar into the donkey derby and he'd still be Shergar.

Take the Ring's list for instance. Joe Louis is 1-2 against their listed fighters. Does that mean he's no good? Of course it doesn't. Archie Moore is 4-6 against listed fighters (take away Harold Johnson and he's 0-5). Willie Pep is 1-3. Larry Holmes didn't beat one fighter on that list (other than a decrepit Muhammad Ali), and in fact never beat a prime all-time great fighter. Yet virtually everyone ranks him a top ten heavyweight.

There's also no consistency in your rankings. You rate Leonard all-time top five for four wins against Hall of Famers, yet Ezzard Charles beat more Hall of Famers than Leonard did, and beat them all multiple times, and is not in your top five. If Duran peaked at lightweight, and wasn't that great anyway, then why does Leonard beating him count as a great win? That's before you consider that Leonard actually lost to Duran.

Iran Barkley was variously described as bum and a club fighter on the other thread, yet he beat Hearns not once but twice - he knocked him out in 3 rounds where Ray took 14, and then decisioned him in the rematch when Ray got a questionable draw - yet in your view Leonard beating Hearns puts him in the top five. How does that work?

If you want to rely on lists of great boxers for examining how good Duran's opposition was, you also have to accept that all of these lists rate Duran higher than Leonard. You can't have it both ways.

In your attempts to claim that Pryor beating Arguello doesn't count as a win against a prime great 140lber, you said Arguello "had to move up 4 divisions to fight him", so presumably losing doesn't affect Arguello's all-time rating. Yet you credit Leonard for beating someone who moved up two divisions to face him, while Duran is cut no slack when he moves up several divisions to take on Leonard, Hagler and co. You also appeared to say that had Duran retired after Leonard I you'd rank him higher. So you're actually demoting him for being prepared to take on the top guys into his 30s and well above his peak weight. Some logic.

Furthermore, only someone who has no idea what he is talking about would refer to Ernesto Marcel as a "bum", which you did on that other thread. What do you know of him, other than what's on Boxrec, to make such a claim?

As for scorecards, they're just the opinion of the three men judging the fight, and quite often do not reflect what happened in the ring. There are many, many times when I've disagreed with the official scoring of a fight...Mayweather-Castillo, Holmes-Spinks II, Ali-Norton III, Lewis-Holyfield I, Leonard-Hagler, etc etc. I'm sure you've also claimed elsewhere that Leonard actually won the first Duran fight, which flies in the face of your assertion that the scorecards are proof of anything other than what the official scoring was.

[JAB5239]

I disagree totally with your methodology, Pink. There's more to a fighter than just his opposition. Enter Shergar into the donkey derby and he'd still be Shergar.

Take the Ring's list for instance. Joe Louis is 1-2 against their listed fighters. Does that mean he's no good? Of course it doesn't. Archie Moore is 4-6 against listed fighters (take away Harold Johnson and he's 0-5). Willie Pep is 1-3. Larry Holmes didn't beat one fighter on that list (other than a decrepit Muhammad Ali), and in fact never beat a prime all-time great fighter. Yet virtually everyone ranks him a top ten heavyweight.

There's also no consistency in your rankings. You rate Leonard all-time top five for four wins against Hall of Famers, yet Ezzard Charles beat more Hall of Famers than Leonard did, and beat them all multiple times, and is not in your top five. If Duran peaked at lightweight, and wasn't that great anyway, then why does Leonard beating him count as a great win? That's before you consider that Leonard actually lost to Duran.

Iran Barkley was variously described as bum and a club fighter on the other thread, yet he beat Hearns not once but twice - he knocked him out in 3 rounds where Ray took 14, and then decisioned him in the rematch when Ray got a questionable draw - yet in your view Leonard beating Hearns puts him in the top five. How does that work?

If you want to rely on lists of great boxers for examining how good Duran's opposition was, you also have to accept that all of these lists rate Duran higher than Leonard. You can't have it both ways.

In your attempts to claim that Pryor beating Arguello doesn't count as a win against a prime great 140lber, you said Arguello "had to move up 4 divisions to fight him", so presumably losing doesn't affect Arguello's all-time rating. Yet you credit Leonard for beating someone who moved up two divisions to face him, while Duran is cut no slack when he moves up several divisions to take on Leonard, Hagler and co. You also appeared to say that had Duran retired after Leonard I you'd rank him higher. So you're actually demoting him for being prepared to take on the top guys into his 30s and well above his peak weight. Some logic.

Furthermore, only someone who has no idea what he is talking about would refer to Ernesto Marcel as a "bum", which you did on that other thread. What do you know of him, other than what's on Boxrec, to make such a claim?

As for scorecards, they're just the opinion of the three men judging the fight, and quite often do not reflect what happened in the ring. There are many, many times when I've disagreed with the official scoring of a fight...Mayweather-Castillo, Holmes-Spinks II, Ali-Norton III, Lewis-Holyfield I, Leonard-Hagler, etc etc. I'm sure you've also claimed elsewhere that Leonard actually won the first Duran fight, which flies in the face of your assertion that the scorecards are proof of anything other than what the official scoring was.

You are absolutely one of the best posters I have seen on any board, Kid. Not only do you know your facts, you know how to convey them. Nice job!

[wpink1]

I disagree totally with your methodology, Pink. There's more to a fighter than just his opposition. Enter Shergar into the donkey derby and he'd still be Shergar.

Take the Ring's list for instance. Joe Louis is 1-2 against their listed fighters. Does that mean he's no good? Of course it doesn't. Archie Moore is 4-6 against listed fighters (take away Harold Johnson and he's 0-5). Willie Pep is 1-3. Larry Holmes didn't beat one fighter on that list (other than a decrepit Muhammad Ali), and in fact never beat a prime all-time great fighter. Yet virtually everyone ranks him a top ten heavyweight.

There's also no consistency in your rankings. You rate Leonard all-time top five for four wins against Hall of Famers, yet Ezzard Charles beat more Hall of Famers than Leonard did, and beat them all multiple times, and is not in your top five. If Duran peaked at lightweight, and wasn't that great anyway, then why does Leonard beating him count as a great win? That's before you consider that Leonard actually lost to Duran.

Iran Barkley was variously described as bum and a club fighter on the other thread, yet he beat Hearns not once but twice - he knocked him out in 3 rounds where Ray took 14, and then decisioned him in the rematch when Ray got a questionable draw - yet in your view Leonard beating Hearns puts him in the top five. How does that work?

If you want to rely on lists of great boxers for examining how good Duran's opposition was, you also have to accept that all of these lists rate Duran higher than Leonard. You can't have it both ways.

In your attempts to claim that Pryor beating Arguello doesn't count as a win against a prime great 140lber, you said Arguello "had to move up 4 divisions to fight him", so presumably losing doesn't affect Arguello's all-time rating. Yet you credit Leonard for beating someone who moved up two divisions to face him, while Duran is cut no slack when he moves up several divisions to take on Leonard, Hagler and co. You also appeared to say that had Duran retired after Leonard I you'd rank him higher. So you're actually demoting him for being prepared to take on the top guys into his 30s and well above his peak weight. Some logic.

Furthermore, only someone who has no idea what he is talking about would refer to Ernesto Marcel as a "bum", which you did on that other thread. What do you know of him, other than what's on Boxrec, to make such a claim?

As for scorecards, they're just the opinion of the three men judging the fight, and quite often do not reflect what happened in the ring. There are many, many times when I've disagreed with the official scoring of a fight...Mayweather-Castillo, Holmes-Spinks II, Ali-Norton III, Lewis-Holyfield I, Leonard-Hagler, etc etc. I'm sure you've also claimed elsewhere that Leonard actually won the first Duran fight, which flies in the face of your assertion that the scorecards are proof of anything other than what the official scoring was.

Headed to the gym to burn off this holiday weight, but i cant wait to address this actually very good post. However, simply off base, and a good attemp to slant my opinions and words...


For example, Duran. When have I ever said Duran was not a top fighter. I am not slamming Duran for not being a great. He is. Every single post I have said states this. In fact I have duran above Mayweather. I simplly think Leonard and Jones are better. That does not mean Duran is not great. Jeez...

Secondly, Ezzard charles, is clearly a top fighter. However, you ignored what I have said, I am ranking only those fighters which I have saw a lot of their fights. I do not subscribe to ranking fighters simplly because Bert Sugar says they are the best. I will listen to experts when they say these are good fighters, but ranking a fighter top 10, is not a objective issue, it is subjective. So unlike many subjective means you use your own intelligence not simply copy cat off of others...

I will be back. Contrary to what you may think. I enjoy debating you and McCoy and Machine. You all know your stuff. You just always give Duran exemptions.....Yes i am biased to Ray but I do try my best to be objective. I do not see the same from you all. That aside I enjoy our debates. The person I cant stand debating cause they simply dont know **** about boxing, and it shows by his repeated debates that benetiz Leonard was a very close fight....on what planet. Benetiz got dropped twice, the final round not even scored yet was about to be a 10-8 roound, and he was already down 7-8 points on 2 of the 3 cards. He also gets on here and says Tyson had a tougher resume than Ali. No I dont respect this idiot, whom I will leave his name out of this, but he knows who he is.

You all are intelligent, but while I am at the gym, please try to look at Roy's Career objectivly, and compare it to Duran. Tell me honestlly how Roy comes up short. We are not talking about Mayweather, as I agree, but roy is a different story.