The Liston/Ali fights were fixed...

[Davros?]

The truth is we'll probably never know. As for the second Ali - Liston fight you watch it carefully. Liston had just badly missed with a left on was off balance and the punch pretty much PUSHED him over. After that Ali was standing over Liston screaming and gesticulating and wouldn't go to the neutral corner. No fighter is going to get up under those circumstances as it would leave him dangerously vulnerable if he tried. Once Ali finally went to the neutral corner Walcott began his count and Liston got up as per the refs count and the fight continued. THEN Nat Fleischer stuck his nose in where it didn't belong and told Walcott that Liston had been down for longer than 10 seconds and was therefore KOed. The biggest problem I have with that is a fighter is KOed when the ref counts 10 NOT when 10 seconds elapse. The count shouldn't rightly start UNTIL the fighter scoring the knockdown goes to the neutral corner. If he wants to jump around the ring and act the clown giving his downed opponent extra time that's HIS business; but he should NOT profit from his own malfeasence.

Poet

That’s how I have always seen it good post, the fight should have continued it was not a fix just poor referring, and the first fight was close imo before Liston hurt his arm. People love a good conspiracy theory but to be honest most of the time they are just a load of rubbish.

[StarshipTrooper]

According to his wife, a few seconds into the 2nd meeting Sonny realized he couldn't beat his opponent and just took an easy way out. Ali and Liston were supposed to clash in the autumn of '64, reportedly Liston trained very hard at that moment. But Ali had to visit the hospital (forgotten why), and the fight was postponed. Receiving the news, it seems like Sonny lost some of his spirit. Is Sonny the only world heavyweight champ who wasn't honored by a parade in his home town. In a BBC documentary of his life, they revealed he was devasted when no one, not even reporters, met up to welcome him as he arrived at the airport after the 1st Patterson demolition. Poor guy!

On top of that Sonny was a sensitive person to begin with and he was hurt by the lack of reception. Here he had just won the Heavyweight championship and no one gave a ****. By all accounts once Sonny got to know you he was a big softy at heart; but he didn't trust strangers and he put up his defenses when around them. He was also undisposed to make nice with people he believed had hurt him in some way. Can you blame him? Most of us have been conditioned to put on a nice public face even around people we despise; Sonny wasn't and I would guess most of US would secretly like to show how we really feel instead of slapping on the mask.

Sonny is a fighter that I've long been a fan of. In his prime he was truly a remarkable fighter. Was he Mob connected? Yes. So was practically every other major fighter from that era. Lets face it: From the 1920s to the early 1960s organized crime controlled boxing. During that period if you wanted a title shot you had to have dealings with the Mob on some level, even if it was just greasing a few palms to get a shot at the Champ. It's the way it was. The Unions were a good case in point. Do you know who controlled the labor unions back then? Take a wild guess! That meant every union member who payed his local dues was dealing with the Mob.

In the case of Ali I can say I'm a fan of his as a fighter: He was breathtaking to watch! After I read the details of what he did to Joe Frazier I wasn't so much a fan of him as a person anymore. I think he was the greatest Heavyweight who ever lived, and watching his fights only reinforces that belief; but I refuse to regard him as some sort of modern-day saint. He isn't. His treatment of Frazier was abominable. It's one thing to hype a fight and sell tickets; it's quite another to "Tom" someone who in no way deserved it then turn around and use stereotypes of him that could have come from a Klansman. Yeah, I once laughed at Ali's antics; but when I stopped to think about what was actually being said I concluded that it just wasn't right. Frazier certainly deserved better than that and so did every other fighter Ali fought.

Poet

[joseph5620]

I just can't see how that first fight was a fix. There is no evidence. All I saw was a fast, athletic 22 year old outmoving and outboxing a slower, unprepared older guy. Liston took him light and didn't prepare for 15 rounds. When Clay was blinded Liston tried his best to knock him out. You can see how desperate he is to get Clay out of there. When it didn't work he quit rather than go on taking more rounds of punishment.

Why would the mob fix the first fight for Liston to lose? If the mob controlled Liston and the championship, why would they give it up and hand it over to Clay who wasn't involved with the mob, but was with the unpopular black ******s? Makes no sense.

That sums it up perfectly and should end this ridiculious thread that had so many holes and lies in it that I would be here all day posting a response to it.

[gridiron]

On top of that Sonny was a sensitive person to begin with and he was hurt by the lack of reception. Here he had just won the Heavyweight championship and no one gave a ****. By all accounts once Sonny got to know you he was a big softy at heart; but he didn't trust strangers and he put up his defenses when around them. He was also undisposed to make nice with people he believed had hurt him in some way. Can you blame him? Most of us have been conditioned to put on a nice public face even around people we despise; Sonny wasn't and I would guess most of US would secretly like to show how we really feel instead of slapping on the mask.

Sonny is a fighter that I've long been a fan of. In his prime he was truly a remarkable fighter. Was he Mob connected? Yes. So was practically every other major fighter from that era. Lets face it: From the 1920s to the early 1960s organized crime controlled boxing. During that period if you wanted a title shot you had to have dealings with the Mob on some level, even if it was just greasing a few palms to get a shot at the Champ. It's the way it was. The Unions were a good case in point. Do you know who controlled the labor unions back then? Take a wild guess! That meant every union member who payed his local dues was dealing with the Mob.

In the case of Ali I can say I'm a fan of his as a fighter: He was breathtaking to watch! After I read the details of what he did to Joe Frazier I wasn't so much a fan of him as a person anymore. I think he was the greatest Heavyweight who ever lived, and watching his fights only reinforces that belief; but I refuse to regard him as some sort of modern-day saint. He isn't. His treatment of Frazier was abominable. It's one thing to hype a fight and sell tickets; it's quite another to "Tom" someone who in no way deserved it then turn around and use stereotypes of him that could have come from a Klansman. Yeah, I once laughed at Ali's antics; but when I stopped to think about what was actually being said I concluded that it just wasn't right. Frazier certainly deserved better than that and so did every other fighter Ali fought.

Poet

Though I admire Ali very much, your thoughts have crossed my mind too (several times). About Sonny being a softy, a sensitive person; lots of sources say he felt most comfortable in the presence of children. Could anyone, man or woman, who enjoys the company of truthful kids, be evil in their hearts. I doubt it.

[riera]

Sonny was great but Ali was greater. if it was fixed then they would have staged a KO, not have him quit liek a bum! the second fight was just terrible refereeing and you can tell from the way Walcott ran arouind like a headless chicken that he just ****ed up bigtime.

[Arka]

[/U][/B]

That sums it up perfectly and should end this ridiculious thread that had so many holes and lies in it that I would be here all day posting a response to it.

Was there any su****ious betting and shifting of odds on Clay,before the first or second fights?

I don't think it a stretch that Ali's associates in the Nation of Islam,may have "asked" Liston,not to try too hard for the win in the second fight.The Heavyweight Championship of the World was the richest prize in sport and would have given massive international exposure to the NOI.

Everyone knows the Mafia's capacity for violence,but we have to remember that Malcolm X was assassinated because,he had left the NOI and converted to Orthodox Islam.By proselytising his faith he threatened the powerbase of the leader of the NOI , Louis Farrakhan.



What happens to those who reject the Final Word of God,as preached by the Right Honorable Louis Farrakhan,in favour of the obsolete orthodoxies of Sunni Islam....

[StarshipTrooper]

Was there any su****ious betting and shifting of odds on Clay,before the first or second fights?

I don't think it a stretch that Ali's associates in the Nation of Islam,may have "asked" Liston,not to try too hard for the win in the second fight.The Heavyweight Championship of the World was the richest prize in sport and would have given massive international exposure to the NOI.

Everyone knows the Mafia's capacity for violence,but we have to remember that Malcolm X was assassinated because,he had left the NOI and converted to Orthodox Islam.By proselytising his faith he threatened the powerbase of the leader of the NOI , Louis Farrakhan.



What happens to those who reject the Final Word of God,as preached by the Right Honorable Louis Farrakhan,in favour of the obsolete orthodoxies of Sunni Islam....

Actually Elijah Muhammad was the of NOI at the time, Louis Farrakhan was his
second at the time.

Poet

[Arka]

Actually Elijah Muhammad was the of NOI at the time, Louis Farrakhan was his
second at the time.

Poet

LOL.Before reading your post,I realised and winced at my error .
Anyway...well done for pointing it out.

[Southpaw Stinger]

I never really got the whole thing of Liston being scared by the NOI. Liston was a scary guy himself and had lead a life full of voilence and danger. The fact that he had the mob in his corner as well makes me wonder why people think he would be intimidated by a few threats (if ever he was seriously threatened)

[ma51f]

Ali is and always will be the greatest boxer in the history of the sport